What's your opinion? Have you been impacted by the concept "women should be silent"?
General Women should be silent ?Women shouldn't teach? REALLY??
- Thread starter Lori Jane
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There is something odd going on w/ 1 Cor 14:34-35. These 2 verses appear in all of the Koine Greek extant manuscripts, sometimes after verse 33. In the other manuscripts, they appear after verse 40. Why is that? There are various theories as to why this is. Check em' out and make up your own mind on what happened.
1 Cor 14:35-36 cannot mean for women to be absolutely silent because then 1 Cor 11:4 makes no sense whatsoever. How can women pray and prophesize without opening their mouths and speaking?
As far as women being Pastors/Overseers or being the Servents/Deacons taking direction from the Pastors/Overseers, I'm not seeing it because women cannot be the husband of one wife.
Can women be Servents (or Deaconesses if one prefers)? Of course! See Phoebe in Romans 16:1. And how could others, in Church gatherings, pray with her & help her if she didn't open her mouth to speak to them? Were other called out ones supposed to telepathically read Phoebe's mind during Church because she had to remain silent & she was not permitted to speak?
Can women teach children the Bible? Yes. See Eph 6:1-3
Can women teach other women the Bible? Yes. See Titus 2:3-5
Can women teach other adult men the Bible, married or unmarried? It depends.
In Acts 18:24-28, Priscilla AND Aquila heard Apollos and THEY took him aside and EXPLAINED TO HIM the way of God more accurately.
Explain: To expound; to lay open the meaning; to clear of obscurity; to interpret; as, to expound a text of scripture; to expound a law.
Both Priscilla AND Aquila more clearly explained the scriptures to Apollos in private.
Priscilla, alone, did not teach nor exercise authority over Apollos, and with good reason per 1 Tim 2:12-15.
Can a man and a woman together teach other men the Bible? Yes.
Can a man alone teach other men the Bible? Yes.
Can a woman alone teach other men the Bible?
I will let Paul answer this last question, again:
The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 2 Tim 2:2
Outside of Church gatherings, can a woman teach unbelieving men?
I believe we are all called to spread the truth of the gospel to all. If an unbelieving man snaps out of it and believes what a believing woman is saying or teaching to him in a conversation about the gospel, then she should direct him to the Overseer and/or Elders. The same goes for believing men in this scenario.
Once an unbeliever becomes a believer, there is a hierarchy:
But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 1 Cor 11:3
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FYI Lori, believing women are to be teachers of good things, per Titus 2:3. Your Simply Christian website is teaching good things. Your YouTube site is teaching good discussions and interviews of others escaping the Watchtower. The scriptures you post and teach about are obviously good things.
I don't want you to think I'm a male chauvinist pig or anything.
There are fellow believers who believe that women can and should be Pastors/Overseers, who are apt to teach and therefore the head, the responsible person to preach & teach & have authority over others within the congregation.
I can't find any NT scriptures to support this belief.
Therefore, I cannot believe it.
I don't want you to think I'm a male chauvinist pig or anything.
There are fellow believers who believe that women can and should be Pastors/Overseers, who are apt to teach and therefore the head, the responsible person to preach & teach & have authority over others within the congregation.
I can't find any NT scriptures to support this belief.
Therefore, I cannot believe it.
I call this the inversion effect. Watch what happens with 1 Tim 2:9-15 -
Likewise, I want MEN to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for MEN making a claim to godliness.
A MAN must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
But I do not allow a MAN to teach or exercise authority over a WOMAN, but to remain quiet.
For it was EVE who was first created, and then ADAM.
And it was not EVE who was deceived, but the MAN being deceived, fell into transgression.
But MEN will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
IT DOESN'T WORK.
Try and do this with other verses or chapters, like 1 Tim 3.
Paul was all about being orderly.
Likewise, I want MEN to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for MEN making a claim to godliness.
A MAN must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
But I do not allow a MAN to teach or exercise authority over a WOMAN, but to remain quiet.
For it was EVE who was first created, and then ADAM.
And it was not EVE who was deceived, but the MAN being deceived, fell into transgression.
But MEN will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.
IT DOESN'T WORK.
Try and do this with other verses or chapters, like 1 Tim 3.
Paul was all about being orderly.
Good morning Lori, I was pondering on this whole topic earlier. I created an example and would like to know what you think about it.
You and Anthony Buzzard are both believers. Watch what happens when you are both referred to in 1 Tim 2:9-12 -
Likewise, I want LORI to adorn HERSELF with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for LORI making a claim to godliness.
LORI must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
But I do not allow LORI to teach or exercise authority over ANTHONY BUZZARD, but to remain quiet.
1st Question: Is Paul lying about this?
My thoughts: I highly doubt it, especially since Paul said two verses earlier: (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) 1 Tim 2:7
2nd Question: Is this example an accurate explanation of what Paul meant?
My thoughts: I believe it is. I simply inserted two believers to see how it read. I am not aware of variants, placement issues or funny business done on these verses in the extant manuscripts.
3rd Question: If this example is not what Paul meant, then what did he mean?
I will shut up now. Please respond at your earliest convenience.
You and Anthony Buzzard are both believers. Watch what happens when you are both referred to in 1 Tim 2:9-12 -
Likewise, I want LORI to adorn HERSELF with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for LORI making a claim to godliness.
LORI must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
But I do not allow LORI to teach or exercise authority over ANTHONY BUZZARD, but to remain quiet.
1st Question: Is Paul lying about this?
My thoughts: I highly doubt it, especially since Paul said two verses earlier: (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) 1 Tim 2:7
2nd Question: Is this example an accurate explanation of what Paul meant?
My thoughts: I believe it is. I simply inserted two believers to see how it read. I am not aware of variants, placement issues or funny business done on these verses in the extant manuscripts.
3rd Question: If this example is not what Paul meant, then what did he mean?
I will shut up now. Please respond at your earliest convenience.
Yikes!
You are a brave man Bvenski!
LoL
I haven’t watched the video yet.
One thing that I definitely disagree with is a woman putting on a head covering while a baptized 12 year old boy conducts a service group!
Show some respect kid !!!
As for Pauls statements, we have to consider who it was written to, the time, and situation. If you have a group of men who know very little about the bible and a woman who is very knowledgeable in biblical studies… does that make sense?
You are a brave man Bvenski!
LoL
I haven’t watched the video yet.
One thing that I definitely disagree with is a woman putting on a head covering while a baptized 12 year old boy conducts a service group!
Show some respect kid !!!
As for Pauls statements, we have to consider who it was written to, the time, and situation. If you have a group of men who know very little about the bible and a woman who is very knowledgeable in biblical studies… does that make sense?
Hi Neil, I totally get the consideration about who the epistle was written to, the time and situation.
However, this consideration does not work here.
In 1 Tim 2:13-15, Paul's goes all the way back to Genesis to JUSTIFY why a woman is not allowed to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
Again, is Paul lying?
As for the group of men who don't know the scriptures, unbelievers or just men who don't know what they believe, but they reach out to a believing woman, she has to guide them for a bit in order to get them acquainted with the Pastor/Overseer and/or Elders.
Bible studies with believing men & women is fine. That's what Priscilla & Aquila & Apollos basically did.
I understand this can be a touchy subject for some. I admit there was I time that I did not discuss this topic.
I'm at a point that I'm not fearing the China owned Communist Dictator Joe Biden, nor Fauci with his experimental arm ouchies, nor many types of evil surrounding us.
And I'm certainly not afraid of the Greek scriptures, where I can tell the words are indicative for males or females.
I was told that our disembodied souls go to heaven, hell or purgatory after we die. Nope, none of that is in the scriptures.
I was told the God is a trinity. Nope, that concept is never mentioned in the scriptures.
I was told that there will be a Pre-Trib Rapture before Jesus returns. Nope, that's not in the scriptures.
I was told that women can be Pastors/ Overseers. Nope, I'm not seeing that anywhere in the scriptures.
I have an open mind. If someone can show me where women can become Pastors/Overseers in the scriptures, then I could change my mind.
No one, however, has been successful in doing so.
I just shared this thread and didn't realize there were comments directed to me that I didn't answer - my apologies.
I do agree women aren't meant to be overseers and that is a loving thing as it is a very stressful and high-risk job. High risk because they will be held to a higher standard and judgment. But there is much women can do - I would imagine many women headed up committees that got things done - feeding the poor, helping orphans, preparing for visiting elders, etc.
I do agree women aren't meant to be overseers and that is a loving thing as it is a very stressful and high-risk job. High risk because they will be held to a higher standard and judgment. But there is much women can do - I would imagine many women headed up committees that got things done - feeding the poor, helping orphans, preparing for visiting elders, etc.
Good afternoon… yes I always had a hard time speaking in public setting anyways.. but I admire those who do. But yes I have been affected by the JW “ authority “ lol
I pray in the Group meetings but still get very nervous and loss for words! It’s a shame what they have done to us all in one way or another.
But I’m working on it. I can express myself very well with my husband but with others around it’s hard. But I’m praying that I get better and better as I would love to teach one day with total confidence! Amen!
Hi Lori… loved all your reasonings.. and you just used scriptures to teach and for us all to reason on! And it can move us all to comment as well.
Now that I know I belong to the Christ… I know as a woman I’m gonna rule as a king and priest with our Lord Jesus. So It shows God and Jesus are not impartial at all. Otherwise he would had only chosen men. But he dignifies women. How Beautiful!
I can only say that when you look up the meaning of Church in the scriptures .. the original word in Hebrew never indicated a building but rather an assembling of Christian’s in a home. So I would think whoever was the owner , husband of that particular house for that particular gathering would take the lead or ask someone else to take the lead .. but that women shared in discussions teachings and prayers.
That’s my humble thoughts.
I am new here so forgive me if I am not following an understood protocol. I think it is important to understand Jesus' teaching rather than focusing on Paul's opinion at a particular point in his life.
The church focused on Paul’s writing (the Pauline Gospel, referenced in Romans 2:16), but Paul was not an eyewitness to Jesus’ teaching, only seeing Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul’s knowledge of Jesus came from other eyewitnesses. In fact, in Acts 8:3 "But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison." Acts 9:1-2 "But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem." It is on the road to Damascus that the resurrected Jesus reveals Himself to Saul (36 AD) and renamed Paul (Read about it in Acts 9:3-7). Paul was a Pharisee that knew the law but only learned about Jesus' teaching from others. After the Damascus road event, Paul did not receive his call (Acts 13:1-3) until 47 AD with the first missionary tour starting in 48 AD. Paul spent 11 years studying the law and the prophets and prophesies of Jesus revealed to him. Much of Paul's writings include components of the law and the prophets. As you read Acts from Chapter 13 on, you will see Paul arguing with Jews in the synagogues not speaking to the Gentiles. Paul eventually became fed up with the Jews and focused on the Gentiles, Acts 13:46 “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles." So many things that I have learned that do not seem to align with Jesus' teaching. Maybe I did not understand at the time, or I was taught and understood. Now I want to test everything to make sure I am not being deceived. Test Paul's writing as well as what I have written to see if it aligns with Jesus" teaching.
I came to a better understanding that Jesus is the pathway to knowledge and a relationship with our Heavenly Father. In John 14:5-10, Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father?' Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.” Jesus is "the Way" to understanding and a relationship with our Heavenly Father.
Jesus does not differentiate male or female, as the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament) that Jesus came to fulfill. We are all brothers and sisters, who our Heavenly Father loves equally. Our Heavenly Father sent us a Counselor (the Holy Spirit) to guide and teach us. Each of us who "Follow Jesus", has a story to tell of what our Heavenly Father has done for us.
The church focused on Paul’s writing (the Pauline Gospel, referenced in Romans 2:16), but Paul was not an eyewitness to Jesus’ teaching, only seeing Jesus on the road to Damascus. Paul’s knowledge of Jesus came from other eyewitnesses. In fact, in Acts 8:3 "But Saul was ravaging the church, and entering house after house, he dragged off men and women and committed them to prison." Acts 9:1-2 "But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem." It is on the road to Damascus that the resurrected Jesus reveals Himself to Saul (36 AD) and renamed Paul (Read about it in Acts 9:3-7). Paul was a Pharisee that knew the law but only learned about Jesus' teaching from others. After the Damascus road event, Paul did not receive his call (Acts 13:1-3) until 47 AD with the first missionary tour starting in 48 AD. Paul spent 11 years studying the law and the prophets and prophesies of Jesus revealed to him. Much of Paul's writings include components of the law and the prophets. As you read Acts from Chapter 13 on, you will see Paul arguing with Jews in the synagogues not speaking to the Gentiles. Paul eventually became fed up with the Jews and focused on the Gentiles, Acts 13:46 “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles." So many things that I have learned that do not seem to align with Jesus' teaching. Maybe I did not understand at the time, or I was taught and understood. Now I want to test everything to make sure I am not being deceived. Test Paul's writing as well as what I have written to see if it aligns with Jesus" teaching.
I came to a better understanding that Jesus is the pathway to knowledge and a relationship with our Heavenly Father. In John 14:5-10, Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?" Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him." Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father?' Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.” Jesus is "the Way" to understanding and a relationship with our Heavenly Father.
Jesus does not differentiate male or female, as the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament) that Jesus came to fulfill. We are all brothers and sisters, who our Heavenly Father loves equally. Our Heavenly Father sent us a Counselor (the Holy Spirit) to guide and teach us. Each of us who "Follow Jesus", has a story to tell of what our Heavenly Father has done for us.
My research this morning brought me to this podcast.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/gospelbound/jesus-revolution-women/
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/podcasts/gospelbound/jesus-revolution-women/
I would answer your question by saying absolutely but in my opinion that doesn't mean all of what Paul wrote aligned with Jesus' teaching. I consider myself a Jesus follower. I am on a journey like everyone on this site. My journey has brought me to test everything against Jesus' teaching, even Paul's writings as well as other first-century authors. When I read Paul's writing, I see Paul's opinion not necessarily Jesus' teaching. Paul (Saul) had a miraculous event that happen to him on the road to Damascus that changed his life. Jesus appeared to him on that road. Paul knew nothing about Jesus except he was the leader of "the way" movement that he was trying to end. Just like each of us here, Paul had to learn about Jesus from the teaching of others. We have access to a massive amount of information at our fingertips. Paul was a Pharisee and after his conversion, he hid in Tarsus for over ten years before receiving his call. The Jews sought to kill him. The followers of "the way" were afraid of him. Paul studied the Jewish scriptures to find the prophesies and references to "the Christ," more than 350. Paul was on a journey the same as all of us. I am testing Paul's opinion and you are questioning what I am writing, which is all good because we are taking action, searching for Jesus' teaching. I believe that is "following Jesus," and that is what he invites us to do.
In John 16:12 Jesus said “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.”
Jesus was talking to those that followed Him. He was trying to prepare them for what was to come. The twelve disciples and other men showed a lack of understanding of Jesus' mission. The Jewish people were taught, and thought, the Messiah was a warrior-king who would descend from the sky with armies of angels to execute God’s judgment and redeem Israel, at that time from their enemies, the Romans. Even after Jesus' resurrection. Luke writes in Acts 1:6, the disciples asked "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" If we look at John 16, we see that Jesus has told the followers that he will be going away. I think that some, on this site, might relate to verses 2 & 3: " They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God. " People in the church persecuting and even killing others thinking it is in the service of God. This has happened throughout the last 2000 years, why? Verse 3 tells us: "And they will do this because they have not known the Father, nor me." There is a Key to the Kingdom of Heaven in verse 7. Jesus must go away or the Counselor will not come. The Counselor, also called the Spirit of Truth, in verse 13, would not only guide but bring remembrance and understanding of Jesus' teaching. As you have noted above from verse 12, they would not understand the details of what was to occur or bear the thought of losing Him. as well as the fact that they would scatter. The Holy Spirit and Counselor is the conduit to connecting us to and restoring our relationship with our Heavenly Father. I think the churches that I have attended have missed the fact that Jesus came to restore our relationship with Him, not as slaves but as sons and daughters. Jesus teaches us to pray Our Father who art in Heaven, I shorten that to just our Heavenly Father. We gain a Father/daughter, Father/son relationship with "the Author of Life." I am a father of a daughter and a son. I don't think one is better than the other. I love them both equally. Our Heavenly Father created them uniquely, like no one else. I find joy in that uniqueness. Our Heavenly Father finds joy in each of us, no rules, just love and mercy. This is what I think and where my journey has brought me.
Today's research brought me across this related information. Based on John 20:1-18, the Vatican has declared Mary Magdalene the Apostle of the Apostles.
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/saints/07/22/st--mary-magdalene--disciple-of-the-lord-.html
https://www.vaticannews.va/en/saints/07/22/st--mary-magdalene--disciple-of-the-lord-.html
God assigned roles to men and women, Adam was first formed then Eve. Eve was decieved, Adam was not. Man is to rule over woman in Godly love. These roles are temporary for this age and we need to follow for now. Just as Christ rules over his bride, man rules over his. Jesus is the head of man. Man is the head of women and God is the head of Christ. The office of prophetess and deaconess can be a woman. Jesus did not appoint any female apostles.