I would agree with the above. Yes. But why are we finding two narratives in the 144000 and the great crowd?
General Reasons why 144k are not the Great Crowd
- Thread starter benadam1974
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I find nothing to disagree with in that. But to return to the original contention, why are you saying that the Jews and the Gentiles are two different categories of people with respect to the kingdom? Do you still hold to the opinion that the Jews as they are called today have a specific part to play in God’s plan going forward?
The word Jew in Hebrew is “Yehudi” and it means “man who praises God”. So the sons of the kingdom are all “Jews”. There is no distinction between Gentile and Jew when both praise God. So what is started in Israel is completed by a great crowd from all the nations, tribes and peoples of the earth (Rev 7) Is there truly any need for those who call themselves Jews today to complete God’s plan? Or to fulfil God’s promise to Abraham for a kingdom?
Forgive me if I sound confused, but there was never a covenant made through Ishmael. He was never “Israel”. What Israel was came through Jacob who is also called “Israel”. The new covenant supersedes the old and the old has no power to save. Those who were truly Israel looked forward to the promise like Abraham did. On the basis of faith is salvation through Christ. Israel today is a secular nation and largely irreligious. Those who call themselves Jews today are no part of spiritual Israel or they would have renounced Judaism and put faith in Christ. So how may it be that there are two covenants today and two “Israels” referent to God’s promise and to his plan going forward?
The identities of the 144000 and the great crowd are revealed by comparing the 144000 to the Philadelphia church and the great crowd to the Laodicean church. Then read Matthew 25 account of the ten virgins. The comparisons you have shown are of events after Christ returns when both groups are in the kingdom. The tribulation is the corrective punishment for the Laodicean church but the Philadelphia church is protected from this hour of trial that comes upon the whole world.
I never said that are two different categories because they become one in Christ, there is no Jew or gentile.
All people are under the law, the whole world, Romans 3:19 death yet reigned on all from Adam to Moses even on people who knew nothing about the law. Romans 5:14. The wages of sin is death from Adam until this day on everyone except those under grace. Romans 6:23 Jesus did not abolish the law but rather established a new covenant apart from the law. The law, every jot and tittle will be in force till heaven and Earth pass away. Matthew 5:18 The two Israel’s are carnal and spiritual, both exist today. Everyone not in Christ is under the law. The law will not provide salvation but it’s intent by GOD was to be a schoolmaster to draw us to Christ. If there was no law there would be no sin, then how would GOD judge. The law is the knowledge of good and evil written on tables of stone that kills but GODS love is the fulfillment of the law, the tree of life is GODS HOLY SPIRIT and agape shed abroad in the hearts of Christians.
Galatians 4:22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31 This is what I was saying concerning Isaac and Ishmael. The Jews used the law to become self righteous but GOD intended it to show us what we look like to HIM, covered with wounds, bruises and putrefying sores from head to foot as we view our reflections in a spiritual mirror. James 1:22,23,24 Isaiah 1:4,5,6,7 Verse 7 sounds like the U.S.
Yes, the converted Gentiles are the 144000 (Rev 7) because the name of Israel is upon them. But would you explain that last sentence? One elect, one carnal under law and the election according to grace? Do you refer to those who are spared during the judgement who continue on the earth but are mortal? I can see two peoples there. But why two covenants, two elections, two Israels? Are you projecting the revisiting of the Moseic law covenant on the peoples who are not sons of the kingdom?
So are you saying that in the kingdom the remaining mortal peoples will be under the Moseic law until they also are brought to a state of grace by which they may also receive everlasting life? Pardon me if I’m not quite catching your point.
Can you tell me precisely what you mean please? Are you saying that all those outside Christ is carnal Israel? I can see that argument, yes. But I’m not sure if you are saying that carnal Israel is secular Israel as we know it today or the whole world outside Christ. Could you clarify? The other question is this - the Moseic law was not just the Ten Commandments but hundreds of laws concerning sacrifices and festivals. The temple of Jerusalem was central to this system of worship and it itself pointed to Christ. So are you saying that all the points of this Moseic law should be kept by those not under grace today or in the future? Obviously a rebuilt temple would point away from Christ now. If you point to something and then walk right past it still pointing do you not actually point away from that thing?
When the kingdom is here the glorified saints will rule and reign under Christ ver the human beings of Earth. The humans are not in the kingdom but are ruled over by it. All people will have the Holy Spirit. The law must be taught to them because it is what they need saved from, it defines what sin is and was intended by GOD to bring people to Christ. The law shows the need for a messiah to rescue us from the curse of death due to sin. Today there are two covenants because in order to be saved from the old by the new both must exist. Paul said there is an election according to grace so then there is one according to the law. The two Israel’s are obvious; carnal under the law and spiritual under grace. The law, as Jesus said will not pass away till heaven and Earth pass away, this is in Revelation 21:1
Only the carnal Israelites were carnal Israel but the law given to them through Moses applies to all people not in Christ. There 613 commandments in the law and to break any one of them is to break them all, James 2:10. Both Israelites and gentiles are under the law, Romans 3:19 the only escape from the law is Christ. GOD wanted carnal Israel to be loyal to HIS law and the other nations then would see the physical blessings showered upon them and desire the GOD of Israel. Isaiah 56:6,7 Leviticus 19:33,34 Exodus 12:48,49 This is why that sect of the Jews in Acts 15:5 made their demands. GOD wanted all the world under HIS law so that the law could as a schoolmaster lead them to Christ but Israel failed and were themselves punished many times for their idolatry. Nevertheless the law survived and still condemns people to death to this day. In the near future the antichrist will use the law to deceive the world because it does not provide salvation. The satanic deception using the law will be powerful because it is biblically based but void of salvation.
You are asking many questions, and it is getting difficult for me to keep track of them all let alone give an answer. You have knowledge, I can see that and are also very inquisitive, good. It is through communication in love that GOD works to teach us all. Ask, seek, knock and the Philadelphia door will be open to us.
I find nothing in that to disagree with and you put it very well. The law and the prophets both testify to aspects of the kingdom and to Christ. But my difference of viewpoint with dispensationalists is that the Jews have no ongoing purpose in God’s plan. The remnant of acceptable Jews is discussed by Paul in Romans 11 (v5) where he describes Jews who became Christians. These righteously abandoned (as they are now redundant) the old practices that were a requirement for God’s people under law. The third temple which I believe will be built performs a signatory purpose only. Any temple built for the sacrifice of animals surely points directly away from Christ now and it is not the temple of which Zechariah alludes to in his prophesy. The treasures of the nations that will come into this temple and how God will fill this house with glory could not refer simply to the second temple (which never received the shekinah) or to the third profane temple to be built by Zionist Jews. Revelation clearly shows that the temple linked to Zerubabbel and Joshua in Revelation 11 refers to the glorification of the bride of Christ at Christ’s return in rhe shekinah cloud.
Carnal Israel will indeed be included but in the future after the second advent. There is great confusion in the churches about law and grace. The third temple offers animal sacrifices thus indicating a return to the law of Moses by the deceived world. I see current Israel as the eighth king mentioned in Revelation 17:11 and the U.S. as the seventh king that must fall to make way for the eighth. The eighth king was formerly one of the previous seven. A beast is symbolic as a nation, so there is a nation that once was then was not but now is. What nation in history existed then did not but then did again. The harlot is Jerusalem that has a harlots forehead, Jeremiah 3:3 this harlot killed the prophets and the saints. Matthew 23:35 Revelation 18:24 Jeremiah 51:49 Some how, modern day Israel is going to rise under the leadership of their messiah, the antichrist, John 5:43 , and become the leading nation on Earth. I have been watching this developing now for over 30 years.
As I understand it, the law was only for Israel and remains in the Bible as a record to teach and explain the kingdom. Are you saying that the law of Moses will be brought back in the kingdom so all of mortal mankind will have to sacrifice animals in a temple? Or are you saying something else?
The law is for the entire carnal world. Romans 3:19 If sin is the transgression of the law then all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD . 1 John 3:4 Romans 3:23 Romans 3:9 The law of Moses is brought back by the antichrist on the carnal world. Anyone not in Christ is under the law. This is the great deception that the world falls for but the elect saints cannot be deceived by it. Matthew 24:24 If the law was to be a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ then how can it only apply to Israel ? Once in Christ the schoolmaster is no longer needed and the saints Passover from being dead because of sin to being alive in Christ, who is our Passover lamb. Antichrist knows the law will not provide salvation and wants to bring the world into its condemnation . Galatians 5:4 Galatians 2:21 The Jews believe that their messiah will enforce the law and is why they ally themselves with the antichrist. It is only when antichrist proclaims himself GOD when the Jews turn against him.
Thank you for sharing your views. Do you think that Ezekiel 38 is prophesying the Antichrist? It is believed that Gog and Antichrist are one and the same. Do you think that is correct?
Yes, the third temple it seems will be built for the purpose of sacrifice, though I think it’s interesting that the Orthodox Jews are against the building of the temple as they believe only their messiah can establish the nation and the temple. The Zionist Jews have a different understanding.
Gog and Magog are in Revelation 20:7,8,9,10 Ezekiel 38:8 This is describing Revelation 20:7-10 Notice the description of conditions, the latter years, a land recovered from war, a people gathered from many nations, dwelling securely. Does this sound like today ? Ezekiel 38 is after the antichrist events, after the millennium, and in the time after the second resurrection. It is Satan himself, newly released from prison, Revelation 20:7 The beast and false prophet long ago cast into the lake of fire, Revelation 20:10 There is not two Gog and MaGog events , only one, and it occurs after the second resurrection.