General Reasons why 144k are not the Great Crowd
- Thread starter benadam1974
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The great crowd or innumerable multitude are the Laodiceans who are a church of GOD the Philadelphians are the 144000 elect saints and both of these will be in the first resurrection but the Laodiceans must suffer martyrdom, Revelation 3:18 , while the 144000 are sealed and protected, Revelation 3:10 , Revelation 7:4
Reasons why the 144,000 are not the Great Crowd in Revelation
- The interpretation of the 144,000 as the international Israel of God, including Jews and Gentiles, doesn't align with the vision in Revelation.
- John's pattern of hearing then seeing in Revelation is disrupted, as he first sees in Revelation 7, not hears, indicating the inconsistency of this view.
The Church Not Identified as Israel
- John never identifies the church as Israel or divides it into 12 tribes, contradicting the idea that the 144,000 represent the church.
Symbolism of the Numbers
- The 144,000 being counted contrasts with the innumerable great multitude, suggesting a literal representation rather than purely symbolic numbers.
Different Origins of the 144,000 and Great Crowd
- The distinction between the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and the great crowd from all nations, tribes, peoples, and languages proves they are not the same entity.
Summary from youtubesummarized.com
Thanks, and just to be clear….I believe it is easiest to understand the 144k as a remnant of Israelites (spoken about by Paul in Rom 9-11) who will come to faith under the pressure of the Great Tribulation. And the “great crowd” (v. 9) Gentiles from all the other nations.
Firstly, I am not sure why a person is likely an amillennialist if they do not subscribe to the view that the 144000 are a group of literally Jewish people seperate and distinct from the “great crowd” in Rev 7. However, the see hear argument is specifically concerned with four of five examples where John hears something described by angels or an angel (whom he invariably sees) and is then shown a different aspect of the same referent. It would be hard to argue that the great crowd are a different group to the 144000 when you consider how many descriptions of the 144000 in Revelation 7 and 14 match the descriptions of the great crowd in Revelation 7, would it not?
The 144000 are sealed the innumerable multitude is not sealed . Christians who are alive at the time of the second advent are the living remnant of the 144000. The future martyrdom of the saints will be the innumerable multitude not the remnant of the 144000. The multitude are the ten virgins in Matthew 25 and the bride is the church, the 144000 and the groom is Christ. James calls the church, “the twelve tribes scattered abroad “ , the church is not Jew or Greek but all one in Christ, the children of promise are Abrahams offspring. The olive tree is the church, the 144000. Unbelieving Israelites were broken off and believing Gentiles grafted in thus making them part of spiritual Israel.
The 144000 are clearly the same group as the great crowd. I will give a brief comparison:
The 144000 are called servants of God. The great crowd serve day and night in the temple. The 144000 are sealed before God’s wrath is poured out or is allowed to begin. The great crowd come out of the great tribulation, just before the bowls of wrath begin to be poured out in Revelation. The 144000 stand with Christ on Mount Zion, the great crowd stand before the throne. Who is in the centre of the throne? Christ. So the great crowd also stand with Christ. Where is Mount Zion? In Jerusalem.
God’s throne was represented on earth by the temple in Jerusalem.
The 144000 are described as pure virgins as befits the bride of Christ. The great crowd wear white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb as befits the bride of Christ. The bride of Christ is seen by John as the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven adorned as a bride. The bride is described in various numerals of 12, 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 foundation stones and her dimensions are given including the numbers 12,000 and 144. The 144000 are clearly this bride, the New Jerusalem and the great crowd are the same bride of Christ in different aspects. Christ has only one bride. Israel is symbolised by the number 12 and so also is the Kingdom.
But please, if you are still convinced that the 144000 are a remnant of bloodline Jews, how do you find 12,000 from each of the lost tribes of Israel? Or in fact from any tribe of Israel today when not even the Jews themselves count these tribes any longer? I’m afraid that it would not be possible to verify such claims anyway as the ancestral records were destroyed in the temple fire in 70CE.
But suppose that God himself was interested in ancestry and located a remnant with suitable DNA, what would their purpose be in the Kingdom do you suppose?
The 144000 are called servants of God. The great crowd serve day and night in the temple. The 144000 are sealed before God’s wrath is poured out or is allowed to begin. The great crowd come out of the great tribulation, just before the bowls of wrath begin to be poured out in Revelation. The 144000 stand with Christ on Mount Zion, the great crowd stand before the throne. Who is in the centre of the throne? Christ. So the great crowd also stand with Christ. Where is Mount Zion? In Jerusalem.
God’s throne was represented on earth by the temple in Jerusalem.
The 144000 are described as pure virgins as befits the bride of Christ. The great crowd wear white robes washed in the blood of the Lamb as befits the bride of Christ. The bride of Christ is seen by John as the holy city, New Jerusalem coming down from heaven adorned as a bride. The bride is described in various numerals of 12, 12 tribes, 12 apostles, 12 foundation stones and her dimensions are given including the numbers 12,000 and 144. The 144000 are clearly this bride, the New Jerusalem and the great crowd are the same bride of Christ in different aspects. Christ has only one bride. Israel is symbolised by the number 12 and so also is the Kingdom.
But please, if you are still convinced that the 144000 are a remnant of bloodline Jews, how do you find 12,000 from each of the lost tribes of Israel? Or in fact from any tribe of Israel today when not even the Jews themselves count these tribes any longer? I’m afraid that it would not be possible to verify such claims anyway as the ancestral records were destroyed in the temple fire in 70CE.
But suppose that God himself was interested in ancestry and located a remnant with suitable DNA, what would their purpose be in the Kingdom do you suppose?
The 144k is the Jewish remnant described in Rom 9-11 who will make up the one body of Christ.
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Actually the one body spans the distance of time from Able to whoever the last called and chosen is. The faithful remnant are those who are alive and remain when Christ returns. Anyone in the first resurrection is of the church of GOD, both the elect and the innumerable multitude. The difference between the two is that the elect were faithful before the day of trouble came while the multitude grieved and quenched the Holy Spirit to where they had no oil (Holy Spirit) as the parable of the ten virgins explains. Two churches of GOD exist simultaneously in the last days; Philadelphia and Laodicea. Philadelphia is protected from the tribulation but the Laodiceans are not and must become martyrs. When Christ returns both will be in the first resurrection.
Paul goes to great lengths to explain how the gentiles become part of Spiritual Israel. Abraham had two sons Ishmael and Isaac. Isaac was the child of promise who represented the new covenant of freedom while Ishmael was of the bond woman , the law of the old covenant. Two groups of people came by Abraham, physical and spiritual, the spiritual is the church, Abrahams offspring of faith. The carnal branches of the olive tree were broken off and gentiles grafted in. The name of Israel is now on the converted gentiles. The twelve tribes scattered abroad is spiritual Israel, the church. There were Christians before Christ, Abraham was one of them and other names are listed in Hebrews 11. There is also elect, one carnal under the law and the election according to grace. Two peoples, two covenants, two elections , two Israel’s.
So if we aren’t talking about Jewish bloodlines or descendants of Jacob, which Jews are we talking about? Do you mean Jews who believe the Torah but reject Jesus as their saviour? Only it would appear, in which case, that the very thing that identifies a Jew as a Jew would be the thing that disqualifies him from the Kingdom.
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PS some teach the 144k in Revelation 7 is the church by misusing James 1:1 and Galatians 6:16 because both references there are defined. James 1:1 adds “in the diaspora” when we know that biblically and historically that refers specifically to ethnic Jews only. And in Gal 6:16 Paul adds “of God” as opposed to “the Israel of the flesh” (1Cor 10:18).
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I’m sorry, but there is no Jewish remnant that I can make out in Romans 9-11. What Paul is talking about is spiritual Israel surely? The seed that was planted in Israel becomes the kingdom of God. It is a continuation through covenants first made with Israel whereby Christ brings Jew and Gentile to salvation through his blood. Where are you interpreting that there is a specific “remnant” of latter day Jews in Romans 9-11?
Before examining the cited scriptures may Ivask you to clarify what you mean exactly by “ethnic Jews”? Jews are from many ethnicities and some are converts. Which Jews exactly? There are Ashkinazi Jews (European Jews of Russian extraction), Ethiopian Jews, Sephardic Jews, and Jews who were born in Israel and there are Orthodox Jews, Hasidic, Zionist, and Jews who are from “Jewish” backgrounds but are not religious. So which Jews would qualify to be a “remnant” today? Why would they be a special class of concert to Christianity? In what way can they fulfil the promise God made to Abraham for his bloodline descendants to be a nation of kings and priests, a holy nation? Where is such a nation as that found today?
Thanks for reading but I don’t really know how else to answer your questions. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Godspeed
With respect, the great crowd are described similarly to the 144000 and thus appear to be the same group. There are four or five similar examples of where John hears something described by an angel or angels and then he sees a different aspect of the same referent. Notice that the great crowd come out of the tribulation, not the judgement. As tribulation saints they are gathered to Christ in the air (they are “raptured”). You point out correctly that there will be many on earth who survive the judgement, illustrated as the seven bowls of wrath that God pours out on the earth in Revelation, but this period follows after the 1260 days of the great tribulation. If the great crowd were described coming out of the judgement I would consider your point well made, but both the 144000 and the great crowd are gathered before the judgement begins. The 144000 must be sealed before the judgement (the angels are ordered not to “harm the sea, the land or any tree until the servants of our God are sealed”. Rev 14) The Great crowd come out of the great tribulation so they also must be one’s tested during the tribulation like the 144000. Both stand before the Lamb, the 144000 stand with Christ on Mount Zion, the great crowd before the throne (but Christ is in the centre of that throne according to Rev 7). The temple of Jerusalem represented God’s throne, Jerusalem is Zion, so both are standing in the same place with the same Lord Jesus at the same time. Surely this indicates they are the same group but shown in different aspects? The great crowd are spiritual Israelites grafted into the olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:16) while natural Israel looks forward to the Kingdom. The sons of the kingdom from all nations and peoples and languages are the final fulfilment of God’s promise to Abraham for a nation of kings and priests. His descendants stand up in the first resurrection and the great crowd are from the same root. Jesus is both the male child of the woman (Rev 12) and the root of Jesse, his ancestor, and the Firstfruits that sanctifies them all.
Perhaps my questions cannot be answered because the Jews you refer to do not exist? Yours is a problematic position indeed.
He is a Jew who is one inwardly, Romans 2:28,29 , all Jews were Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews, there were 12 tribes. Prior to Christ and in the early years of the church Israelites were the majority of those called and chosen, but afterwards the time of the gentiles kicked in. Abraham was not an Israelite or a Jew but a gentile. The nation of Israel did not even exist until 400 years later. Do not boast against the natural branches. Romans 11:18
The 144000 called the elect are sealed and protected from the tribulation, Revelation 3:10 the crowd come out of the tribulation having been martyred in it. Daniel 11:32,33,34,35 The 144000 and the crowd both enter the kingdom but only the elect rule and reign with Christ the 1000 years.. The elect 144000 washed their robes in the blood of the lamb long before the tribulation. The crowd is converted during the tribulation. Revelation 14:1 does not say the 144000 and the crowd and the FATHERS name is on their foreheads just as when they were sealed in Revelation 7. Only the 144000 could learn the new song, no great crowd is mentioned. See Revelation 5:9. There is no mention of the crowd being sealed. The fact that the 144000 elect have a definite number and the crowd is innumerable should be all that is needed to show separate groups. The saints are not gathered until Christ returns . Your referring to the tribulation as judgment . As far as being the church of GOD both are but in different circumstances. One faithful before the tribulation and the other while in the tribulation. The crowd is the five foolish virgins of. Matthew 25 .