To accept the covenant of Sinai, we would. But that akin to denying the Son of God.
To accept the Covenant of Grace, we would show our acceptance by baptism.
We cannot be in both at the same time.
General Christ - our example
- Thread starter Petunia
- Start date
To accept the Covenant of Grace, we would show our acceptance by baptism.
We cannot be in both at the same time.
Scripture declares that GODS love is the fulfillment of the law so if Jesus fulfilled the law he did so with GODS love. Jesus told his disciples, as the FATHER has loved me so I have loved you. The FATHERS love and Christs love are the same. Gods love does no har it cannot sin. Jesus gave us two great commandments based on agape, GODS love. Jesus was born of GOD. GOD was the father of Jesus. No other person can ever make the same claim. Jesus was born of GOD and anyone who is born of GOD cannot sin because GODS spirit remains in him. Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus as the express image of GODS nature, a nature of righteousness and agape. How could Jesus ever say, if you have seen me you have seen the FATHER or I and my FATHER are one. Jesus told us plainly that he could only do what GOD would do. John 5:19 As far as learning Jesus was taught by GOD, John 8:28 In agape and righteousness Jesus was an exact copy of GOD. Jesus was GODS example to us to demonstrate his FATHERS agape and righteousness, to reveal the FATHER . In him was no sin, he knew no sin, he was without sin and you say because he made good choices. Would GOD give humanity a potential sinner as a savior or a perfect Passover lamb with no spot or blemish. The symbolism of the Passover lamb was fulfilled by Jesus. Jesus said the we must be as perfect as his FATHER, would he demand this from us if he himself was not ? In Jesus GOD created an image of HIMSELF, not in HIS Omni’s but in agape and righteousness. Then We are to be transformed into the image of Jesus who was the image of GOD. Unitarians actually assassinate the character of Christ by saying the things they say about him and I am guessing this is where you got your idea that Jesus Christ was a potential sinner. Jesus Christ was the only righteous man who ever lived. The Jesus I know was absolute perfection and I will not try to bring him down to my level but realize that I must attain to his.
Well, this is where my dotted "i" and crossed "t" come into view. (I do wish we had access to the Hebrew copy of the book of Matthew.)
I know that there are many who have difficulty with the call "to be perfect." For many, it means something other than what the context of the passage shows us. I think that is where some get trapped in the legalistic understanding and suffer the stress of comparing our freedom in Christ with His statement to be "perfect." Indeed, I would like to be perfect like the Son of God. But, in this context, it is an instruction to love.
Mt 5:38–48 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This set of verses comes from the Sermon on the Mount. We get wrapped around the proverbial axle because of the translator's choice of the English word "perfect." The Greek word used "teleios" is used to describe something that has reached its end or purpose, signifying completeness or maturity. It often refers to spiritual maturity or moral perfection, indicating a state of being fully developed in character and faith.
To me, we are being told to love those who don't love us. We must do that so that we are like our Father in heaven who loves those who do not love Him.
I know that there are many who have difficulty with the call "to be perfect." For many, it means something other than what the context of the passage shows us. I think that is where some get trapped in the legalistic understanding and suffer the stress of comparing our freedom in Christ with His statement to be "perfect." Indeed, I would like to be perfect like the Son of God. But, in this context, it is an instruction to love.
Mt 5:38–48 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
This set of verses comes from the Sermon on the Mount. We get wrapped around the proverbial axle because of the translator's choice of the English word "perfect." The Greek word used "teleios" is used to describe something that has reached its end or purpose, signifying completeness or maturity. It often refers to spiritual maturity or moral perfection, indicating a state of being fully developed in character and faith.
To me, we are being told to love those who don't love us. We must do that so that we are like our Father in heaven who loves those who do not love Him.
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a betting hope did, by which we draw near unto GOD. Hebrews 7:19. Some translations render the word perfect as “complete “ . GODS love makes us complete, fulfills the law, GOD is love. The fruits and gifts help make us complete in GODS love, the greatest gift is love.
Shem Tob had a gospel of Matthew in Hebrew. It is the complete text. There is also the Du Tilley and the Munster both based on Shem Tobs work.
Jesus had direct contact with GOD and needed no mediator. He and his FATHER were one, if you saw Jesus you see the FATHER, Jesus was worthy of worship, there is no prophecy saying he would be capable of sin, the prophets all spoke of his success and surety of being the king of the kingdom. Scripture declares that Jesus has been the same yesterday, today and forever. Christ has not changed therefore he entered heaven a potential sinner but this is a problem because in the heavenly realm sin nor its potential does not exist. If indeed Jesus could have sinned this would be a very serious flaw in his character and there would have to be some type of atonement or sacrifice for him in order to enter heaven. If Jesus would yet be a potential sinner in heaven what guarantee would the FATHER have of Jesus not turning against HIM as Satan did. There is no statement from any of the Apostles indicating that Jesus could have sinned, in fact they said the opposite, in him was no sin, he knew no sin. Saying Jesus could have sinned violates the symbolism of the Passover lamb. This promotes the idea that since Jesus was a potential sinner then we are OK if we are potential sinners as well. This idea shortens the heighth of the stature and fullness that we as Christians are to measure up to. Ephesians 4:13 Sin is never overcome as long as you are capable of it. Yet Christ overcame all and this was not just good choices, luck, or a gamble. Jesus was the express image of his GOD. Hebrews 1:3 Colossians 1:15 Would an Almighty GOD that showed through Adam the failure of a man who with knowledge disobeyed GOD and brought sin and death into the world repeat the same thing over again with Jesus ? The salvation GOD provided us with was not a gamble dependent on weather or not Jesus would sin a ruin it all . I believe my salvation and the salvation of all mankind was a sure thing with no possibility of failure. GOD gave HIS word and swore oaths to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and king David that a seed from them would be born and in that seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed and again swore and oath to king David, Acts 2:29,30,31 Psalm 132:11
Psalm 89:3,4 Hebrews 6:13 Genesis 22:16,17,18 If the ALMIGHTY GOD swears an oath to not just one but two men of faith what would that mean ??? GOD cannot lie, Hebrews 6:17,18 This is why Jesus was incapable of sin.
Psalm 89:3,4 Hebrews 6:13 Genesis 22:16,17,18 If the ALMIGHTY GOD swears an oath to not just one but two men of faith what would that mean ??? GOD cannot lie, Hebrews 6:17,18 This is why Jesus was incapable of sin.
Last edited:
I certainly agree that Yeshua, with the fulness of Yahweh's spirit, was not capable of sin - especially since He is the New Covenant given to the world. I have spent time considering Yeshua's words that asked:
Luke 18:18-19 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Mk 10:17–18 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
Since we know that Yeshua is not claiming to be His Father, this response is puzzling. I realize that those who are trinitarian claim that this response was a backhanded claim that He is also His Father. I run short of having a rational answer to why He responded this way.
I understand that, for English speakers, the word "good" is very vague and can mean most anything. Thayer's dictionary claims that the usage in these verses indicate "upright or honorable."
Please understand that I am only pondering here. Your thoughts?
YAHWEH was the creator of the Christ and YAHWEH created Christ good, just as good as HIMSELF. Jesus knew the source of all goodness was his GOD and FATHER and he knew this but rather than take any glory for himself he gave it all to YAHWEH. Jesus made himself of no reputation and took on the form of a servant and being in the likeness of man humble himself giving all the glory to YAHWEH.
Petunia thinks Jesus could have sinned. I say that the oaths YAHWEH swore to Abraham and David totally eliminate that possibility. YAHWEH created HIS son absolute perfection in agape and righteousness, Jesus was equal to YAHWEH in these things and this is why Jesus could say if you have seen me you have seen the FATHER. This is why I have said that if YAHWEH did ever become a man HE would have been Jesus Christ. In Hebrews 1:3 “the exact representation of HIS being “ or “the express image of HIS person”. The words exact expression or express image are Strongs article G5481 “character “ . Jesus had the EXACT character of YAHWEH . It is no wonder that carnal pagan minds thought Jesus was YAHWEH because in character he was. The blood of a potential sinner would never be accepted as the sacrifice for the world, only the blood of an impeccable son of YAHWEH. If people deny these truths they deny both YAHWEH and Christ, they in effect have no savior.
This is why I am so against all preachers of this lie.
This is why I am so against all preachers of this lie.
Last edited:
OK, I think I might be able to phrase this explanation as "Yeshua was a man, but if He was only a man, he could have sinned. He knew that, but as a man given the fulness of the Spirit of Yahweh, He could not. Knowing this, he can say that only the Father is good, because His goodness was derived from His Father. In acknowledging this, the only humble to say that is exactly how He said it.
If Jesus had free will as we do he could have sinned IMHO. That is the whole point isn't it? He used his free will to align with his Father's will - to the extent he and the Father were one.
If that is not the case it seems to me it is impossible to be like Christ if he had some sort of super powers that we don't have. His real super power was he used his free will to do what no other human had done yet. That is why he is our model.
If that is not the case it seems to me it is impossible to be like Christ if he had some sort of super powers that we don't have. His real super power was he used his free will to do what no other human had done yet. That is why he is our model.
Jesus demonstrated this agape love to us as he died for people that murdered him, asked his FATHER to forgive them. This agape makes it impossible for Christ to have sinned and is how he was the image of the invisible GOD.
These super powers were contained in the spirit of GOD that Christ had in full measure. These same “super powers “ we will also have in the kingdom if we truly believe that Jesus demonstrated them to us as a man. Agape cannot sin and Christ was filled with the agape of GOD.
Personally I think we have these super powers now but need to learn how to access/activate them like Jesus did. We have holy spirit now within us. The "full measure" part comes from practice - living in a state of love and forgiveness and connecting with spirit more fully and consistently.
We are supposed to be transformed into the image of Christ, would this mean we are to become potential sinner ? Perhaps it means we will be like him in impeccability. I do not know of any of the prophets saying Jesus would be a potential sinner, all of them declared him to be GODS righteous servant. Consider that GOD swore an oath to both Abraham and king David; to Abraham that in his seed all the nations would be blessed and to David that from him GOD would have a king on his throne forever. What impact would two oaths from GOD have on the possibility that Jesus could have sinned ? GOD put HIS reputation on the line, would HE have done that if Christ could have sinned ? Would the shed blood of a potential sinner be an adequate sacrifice for the sins of the world ? We are to measure up to the stature and fullness of this man messiah, yes the bar is very high, but with GOD all things are possible.
That is an interesting approach. As I have grown over the years, I can look back and see periods when I went with my free will - and did wrong. However, my ability to do that diminished in me as I grew. I don't think any of us get "full of the spirit of God" in an instant. I could be wrong, but I know only how it happened to me.
The stronger I felt the Spirit in me, the more my free will matches what I see in the scriptures. I can say - now - that I do follow my free will, but it matches what I see in the Bible. But, it is now mine.
Yeshua was born with the fulness of Yahweh. We have to accept it in our growth. I think that is the big difference.
I think that we will need to be covered by GODS grace and righteousness all of our lives because we are yet sinners. 1 John 1:10 We will not achieve perfection until our change comes , when Christ returns, then we will partake of the divine nature of GOD that Christ demonstrated to us as he said, if you have seen me you have seen the FATHER.