Article Why Partial Preterism Is Also a Faulty Approach to Prophecy

Why Partial Preterism Is Also a Faulty Approach to Prophecy ​

The Partial Preterist approach views almost all prophecy as having been fulfilled by A.D. 70 although there is still to be a future visible coming of Christ at the end of the Millennium (Post-Millennialism) and followed by a visible resurrection of Christians and a judgment. This is a popular and growing belief and is taught by N.T. Wright the leading teacher in the Christian evangelical world.

Partial Preterism Is a Compromise​

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Indeed, Partial Preterism is a compromise between Consistent Preterism and a small amount of Futurism. However, the Partial Preterist version of Futurism is not the clear apostolic teaching that is today called Classical Pre-Millennial Futurism (Please see later chapters), but rather a Post-Millennialist understanding. The only parts of this approach that are yet future are: 1) a future return of Jesus after a symbolic 1,000 years and 2) a future first resurrection and judgment also after a symbolic 1,000 years. Nevertheless, the main emphasis of Partial Preterism is on a past fulfilment of prophecy.

FACTORS SIMILAR TO CONSISTENT PRETERISM​

These are all noted and answered in the previous chapters, so that the interpretations and so-called proof texts are similar to those of Consistent Preterism:

“The Beast” was Nero and/or the Roman Empire.

“The Abomination of Desolation” was Jewish zealots or Roman generals or the corrupt Jewish leadership.

The fleeing from Jerusalem occurred between A.D. 66 and 68.

“The false prophet” was the Jewish leadership.

“The great harlot/Babylon the great” was Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

The great apostasy concerned Israel only and was only up to A.D. 70.

The term “Antichrist” describes this great apostasy.

The last days/end of the age concerned first century Israel only.

“This generation” applies only to the first century.

The great tribulation ended with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. There is to be no future great tribulation.

The celestial phenomena of Matthew 24:29 are taken as symbolic of the end of the nation of Israel in A.D. 70.

Christ’s Parousia was his invisible spiritual return which began in A.D. 70 when the five-month siege of Jerusalem started so that he directed the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem but he will also literally return at the end of a symbolic 1,000 years.

Jesus’ coming on the clouds is symbolic of a reversal of fortunes in history and refers to his ascension to heaven.

The Armageddon situation is not to be taken literally, but is just a symbol of the defeat of God’s enemies.

The Millennium began at Jesus’ first advent. It is not a literal thousand years, but only a long and undefined period of time.

Satan is currently bound.

Replacement theology whereby Israel is completely replaced by the Church and has no further future.

New Jerusalem is the church. The “new heavens and new earth” are already in operation because Christians are “the new creation.”

Some Partial Preterists have different interpretations to others concerning some of the details. For instance, some interpret the Abomination of Desolation as being the Jewish zealots, while others interpret it as being the actions of Vespasian when he was a general and of General Titus in A.D. 70.

Why These Interpretations Are Incorrect​

Partial Preterism is a self-contradictory theory because it takes a time-frame of events which it views as concerning only the first century and says that all these events must have been fulfilled in A.D. 70, but then, according to some, negates that very time-frame by placing several of those events, namely, Jesus’ second coming and the first resurrection, beyond the deadline that they have set for all the events. It does this by artificially dividing up Matthew 24 so that 24:4-31 concerns the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem, whereas 24:36-46 concerns the distant future events related to Jesus’ second coming. This artificial break-point is supposedly when Jesus says, “But concerning that day and hour no one knows…” (vs. 36) as if the phrase ““But concerning” (Gk peri de) introduces a new topic. However, other than in the writings of Paul, the phrase is never used in this way but is always used for the resuming of a subject e.g., in Matthew 20:1-16 for the parable of the workers in the vineyard.

Other Partial Preterists propose the idea that there are two second comings, an idea which is completely unscriptural as shown later. Furthermore, this idea is based on circular reasoning by making an assumption to support a failed theory. However, a straight reading of all of Matthew 24 highlights a number of aspects of the scenario that have not yet occurred, including the celestial phenomena which Presterists are then obliged to make allegorical. Furthermore, the entire passage from verse 4 concerns “the end of the age.” So, according to Brock Hollett in his book Debunking Preterism (p. 123), the result of the Partial Preterist approach requires:

Two distinct last trumpets.

Two distinct comings of Jesus.

Two distinct judgment days.

Two distinct times of the end.

Two distinct gatherings of the chosen ones.

Two distinct arrivals of God’s kingdom.

Two distinct dissolutions of two distinct “heavens and earth.”

THE GRAMMATICAL MISTAKE BY PARTIAL PRETERISTS​

With Consistent Preterists, Partial Preterists also propose that the following Greek words in Revelation are chronological texts i.e., soon/shortly (adverbs of time). However, the Greek terms used in Revelation: taXu (soon), eggus (near, at hand), and melloo (about to) are not chronological markers but are qualitative indicators:

SOON (taXu)

This means “speedily, quickly (adverbs of manner) and with speed (adverbial phrase of manner).”

NEAR AT HAND (eggus) and ABOUT TO (melloo)

The New Testament writers used these phrases in the same way the ancient Hebrew prophets did e.g., “For the day of Yahweh is near upon all the nations” (Obad. v. 15). Yet these types of prophecies were not fulfilled until a very long time after they were written. For the prophets the future was always viewed as imminent—they blended the near and distant perspectives so that their readers would take their message very seriously. John does the same. So, to say “the day is at hand” gives the reader a sense of tangibility. George E. Ladd explains this prophetic perspective:

“The problem is raised by the fact that the prophets were little interested in chronology, and the future was always viewed as imminent…Biblical prophecy is not primarily three-dimensional but two; it has height and breadth but is little concerned about depth, i.e., the chronology of future events. There is in biblical prophecy a tension between the immediate and the distant future; the distance is viewed through the transparency of the immediate.” A Commentary on the Revelation p. 22.

For the Christian this was because ‘the age to come’ was already pressing into ‘the present age’ and they were to live in continual readiness for Jesus’ return (Matt. 24:42). However, with either form of Preterism there is a misreading of Jesus’ intentions in giving his Olivet prophecy. Indeed, it is imperative to recognized the divine perspective i.e., God’s timetable (2 Pet. 3:1-13) as a near and far fulfilment (‘Inaugurated Eschatology’) rather than as a ‘Realized Eschatology.

DANIEL 9-12 AS THE BASIS FOR ESCHTOLOGICAL SEQUENCE​

Preterists generally make the same mistake as historicists in their understanding of the prophetic schedule set out in Daniel 9:24-27. They fail to understand that there is a clear gap of time after the 69th ‘seven’ and before the 70th begins in the future. Please see chapters 18, 19, and 20.

1 AND 2 THESSALONIANS AND THE OLIVET DISCOURSE STILL FUTURE​

The A.D. 70 invasion of Judea by the Roman army is noted by Jesus only in Matthew 24:2. The remaining verses concern events which have not yet happened as indicated by their parallels with the 1 and 2 Thessalonians end-times details and so must take place within the same future time frame in the following details:

1) PRELUDE TO JESUS’ RETURN​

“The Sacrilege which causes desolation” will be in the holy place (Matt. 24:15) / man of lawlessness in God’s sanctuary (2 Thess. 2:3, 4).

Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21) / Retribution (1 Thess. 1:10, 2 Thess. 1:8).

False wonders and signs (Matt. 24:24) / False wonders and signs from Satan (2 Thess. 2:9).

False prophets and deceivers (Matt. 24:4ff) / False teachers and deceivers (2 Thess. 2:2).

Rebellion precedes return (Matt. 24:10) / Rebellion precedes return (2 Thess. 2:3).

Sense of complacency (Matt. 24:37-39, 48-51) / Peace and safety cry (1 Thess. 5:3).

Destruction comes unexpectedly (Matt. 24:39) / Destruction comes unexpectedly (1 Thess. 5:3).

2) JESUS RETURNS​

• The sign of your coming (Matt. 24:3) / When the Lord comes (1 Thess. 4:15, 2 Thess. 2:1).
• Jesus is visible like lightning (Matt. 24:27) / Jesus visible in blazing fire (2 Thess. 1:7, 8).
• With angels (Matt. 25:31) / with angels (2 Thess. 1:7, 8).

3) THE FIRST RESURRECTION/RAPTURE​

Son of man (Matt. 24:30) / Lord himself (1 Thess. 4:16).

Clouds of the sky (Matt. 24:30) / In the air (1 Thess. 4:17).

Great sound of a trumpet (Matt. 24:31) / The trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16).

Gather together (Matt. 24:31) / Caught away together (1 Thess. 4:17).

Know that summer is near (Matt. 24:32) / Times and the seasons (5:1).

Marrying, then flood came (Matt. 24:38) / Safety then destruction (1 Thess. 5:3).

Watch (Matt. 24:42) / Stay awake and keep our senses (5:6).

Known in what watch the thief was coming (Matt. 24:43) / Thief in the night (1 Thess. 5:4).

Evidently Paul wrote about the same subject in First Thessalonians 4 and 5, and Second Thessalonians 2 that Jesus had earlier spoken of in Matthew 24, namely the time of the end with the return of Jesus and which culminates in the resurrection when Christians are gathered together by the angels to meet the returning Jesus.

When comparing all these details of Jesus’ and Paul’s words we can see that they are both speaking of the same future fulfilment of these events which will occur long after the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem. Indeed, this comparison also militates against dividing the Olivet discourse anywhere after Matthew 24:29 or 36 as some Partial Preterists attempt to do.

REVELATION AND THE OLIVET DISCOURSE STILL FUTURE​

There are some Partial Preterists who try to separate the Olivet discourse as having been fulfilled in A.D. 70 from the, as yet to be fulfilled, prophecies in the Book of Revelation. However, this, too, is not possible because:

• There is a tight connection between Jesus’ words in Matthew 24:29 and the sixth seal of Revelation 6:12-17 which is about the dramatic and miraculous darkening of the sun, moon and stars.
• This event in the Olivet prophecy is entirely literal in this prophetic context and so must be the same entirely literal event that is portrayed in Revelation 6. Yet Partial Preterists are reduced to allegorizing the details of Matthew 24 to make it fit their A.D. 70 theory. This event concerns the wrath of God and “the wrath of the Lamb” (Rev. 6:16, 17). Partial Preterists reduce this wrath to only falling upon Jerusalem in A.D. 70 by means of the Roman army; whereas Revelation says: “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world (Lit. All the inhabited earth)” (Rev. 3:10).
• The descriptions of these cosmic events were first recorded by a number of Old Testament prophets who linked them with “the day of Yahweh”—“the day of God’s wrath.” e. g. Isaiah 13:9-13, Joel 2:10, 11).

So, however Partial Preterists try to break up Thessalonian and Revelation prophecy data in their attempt to make the Olivet discourse refer to the A.D. 70 event, it just will not fit.

The Details Incorrectly Interpreted​

THE BEAST - NOT NERO OR THE ROMAN EMPIRE​

The explanation for why Nero is not “the Beast” is given in chapter 7 showing that the supposed application of the “number of the Beast” as 666 does not truly fit Nero. Later studies will show the

“Beast” to be the future Antichrist as is the term “the Abomination of Desolation.” So, the beast also does not represent an apostasy that lasted up to A.D. 70.

Furthermore, the Beast could not have been the Roman Empire, because he is shown to be the Antichrist who is a specific individual (1 John 2:18; 2 John 7; 2 Thess. 2:3). All of this leads to a confused chronology. Legitimately the beast’s activities take place within 42 months (Rev. 13:5-10).

THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION - NOT TITUS OR JEWISH ZEALOTS​

This could not have been the Jewish Zealots (or Edomites A.D. 68) because their actions against the Romans occurred far too many years after the 69th ‘seven’ of years of the Daniel 9 schedule which ended in A.D. 33. This is far too great a gap until A.D. 70 because in Preterist thinking the final 7 years should follow on immediately after the 69th ‘seven’ of years.

Also, General Titus did not die in A.D. 70 but which should have happened according to Daniel 11:45b if he was the “abomination…”

Some have even suggested that the “abomination…” was the corrupt Jewish leadership but this is a grasping at straws and again does not fit the biblical schedule or other descriptions.

Furthermore, all these interpretations fail to show the involve- ment of “the abomination…” in the temple complex and specifically its sanctuary (Dan. 812-14;9:27; 11:31; 12:11). Clearly, Partial Preterists have no agreement among themselves concerning the identity of “the Beast” or “the Abomination...”

OLIVET PROPHECY - NOT ABOUT FLEEING FROM JERUSALEM IN A.D. 66 ​

Please refer to p.26 for N.T. Wright’s comment showing the impossibility of this scenario as happening between A.D. 66 and 70. However, there is a proposal that such fleeing would have taken place at the early time of November of A.D. 66 after the withdrawal of the armies of Cestius Gallus. However, this withdrawal was only from the temple area and does not mean that there was a free escape route for Jewish Christians just as Wright shows. Furthermore, this proposal would mean that Cestius Gallus was the “Abomination…” and would place him almost four years before the destruction of Jerusalem which does not fit the Daniel 9 pattern.

THE GREAT HARLOT/BABYLON THE GREAT - NOT JERUSALEM​

It would be very strange to interpret Jerusalem, which is God’s city, as Babylon. The two cities pictured as women have been enemies throughout biblical history, so that God made many positive promises for Jerusalem and yet Babylon is shown as doomed in similar prophecies. Jerusalem (Israel) pictured as beautifully adorned (Rev. 12:1) is clearly and enemy of Satan (vs. 3) whereas Babylon the great sits upon the scarlet-coloured ferocious beast (Antichrist) that is blasphemous and adorned as a prostitute queen (Rev. 17:3) and rises from the abyss (Rev. 11:7). Clearly, the correct interpretation of a future Babylon the great would be of a pagan Gentile port city which are facts not pertinent to Jerusalem.

Although Jerusalem certainly was back-slidden she is prophesied to be restored to being a righteous city (Isa. 2:3, 62:7; Zech. 2:12, 8:3, 14:16-17; Matt. 5:35), whereas Babylon the Great is shown to be destroyed forever (Rev. 18:19, 20).

FIRST CENTURY WARS/EARTHQUAKES – NOT PROOF OF “THE END” THEN​

Jesus shows that his words in the Olivet discourse concerning deception, persecution, wars and rumours of wars categorically do not signal “the end of the age.” This is because these types of catastrophes have happened in every period of history. However, Jesus speaks of “the beginning of the birth pains” as an intensification of these wars and to include, specific famines, earthquakes, and pestilences (Matt. 24:4-8; Luke 21:10, 11). This intensification is proven by the descriptions of the first four seals of the sealed scroll given in the book of Revelation which sets these events within the first half of Daniel’s 70th ‘seven’ (Dan. 9:27). These run parallel with the Olivet discourse (Rev. 6:1-8). Indeed, because the Revelation was provably written in the mid-90s A.D. (see pp. 31-34), these events were to be long after the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem. Furthermore, persecution of Christians did not cease after A.D. 70 but has continued until now. However, this general persecution is differentiated by Jesus from the coming “great tribulation/persecution” i.e., intensified persecution and as described in the fourth and fifth Seals (Rev. 6:7-11).

“THIS GENERATION” - NOT APPLYING ONLY TO THE FIRST CENTURY​

This aspect of Preterism is answered fully on page 12 of chapter 4 showing that the Greek term refers to a block of mankind with certain common characteristic (mostly evil) and so can rightly be rendered as “the society of the age” and so running all the way until the return of Jesus. Scholar Brock Hollet provides a comprehensive explanation of the meaning of the term “this generation” on pages 89-99 of his book Debunking Preterism.

THE END OF THE AGE – NOT THE END OF THE OLD COVENANT SYSTEM​

This period could not apply only up until A.D. 70 because all descriptions in the letters of Paul, Peter, James, and John (the last hour) concerning those days are not stated to concern national Israel only. Preterists misconstrue these events by linking the destruction of the second temple with the end of the age. However, Daniel 9 separates these events so that the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (second temple) are noted in 9:26 in the undetermined period of time between the end of the 69th ‘seven’ and the beginning of the 70th ‘seven’ (9:27) as the end of the age scenario with the desolation of the third temple as also noted in Daniel 11:31, 45 and 12:1-4, 6-12. Indeed, the desolation of this third temple does immediately precede Jesus’ second advent. Nevertheless, these events could only be understood in retrospect after the A.D. 70 event to show that this did not fulfil the entirety of the Olivet prophecy. The reason these temple structures are not numbered is because the disciples understood these as continuations of the original temple built by Solomon as shown in Haggai, saying, “Who among you survivors saw the former splendor of this temple? How does it look to you now? Isn’t it nothing by comparison?’” (Hag. 2:3).

“THE LAST DAYS” - NOT THE LAST DAYS OF THE JEWISH SYSTEM​

This is the same as the points made about the end of the age. Additionally, the Apostle Peter quotes Joel 2:28-32 to show that the last days encompass not only Pentecost of A.D. 33, but the end-times scenario of “the great and spectacular day of the Lord” with its literal darkening of the sun and moon etc (Acts 2:16-21). Furthermore, Peter connects “the end of the days” with “the promised arrival [of Jesus] to be king” (2 Pet. 3:3, 7). So, this Partial Preterist proposal is a further clutching at straws.

THE GREAT TRIBULATION – NOT IN A.D. 70​

The A.D. 70 event was also far too late to fit as being the great tribulation. Additionally, this tribulation is described by Jesus as, “unequalled by anything that has happened since the beginning of the world until now, or will ever happen again” (Matt. 24:21). This is not the case with the events of A.D. 70.

Some Partial Preterists propose that the “days of vengeance” and exile of Jews spoken of by Jesus in Luke 21:20-24 occurred in A.D. 70 and was the centuries long exile. However, this is a failure to recognize that the Great Tribulation is unprecedented and that it corresponds to the future “trampling of Jerusalem” for 42 months (Rev. 11:2, 3) by entire nations (not simply the Roman army). It will also be a relatively short exile that is within that 3½ year period and linked with the “trampling of Jerusalem” during the “times of the Gentiles” (Luke 21:24).

CELESTIAL PHENOMENA – NOT SYMBOLIC, BUT LITERAL EVENTS​

The event of the darkening of the sun with the moon being turned to blood and the stars falling from the sky occurs “immediately after the great tribulation” and so showing a logical sequence to these events in Matthew 24:29. Therefore, these celestial phenomena cannot be taken as symbolic. Indeed, they cannot be symbolic of the end of the nation of Israel in A.D. 70 or as the collapse of a political-religious order as taught in Preterism. Furthermore, the very multinational military invasion of Israel is understood as quite literal by all commentators as are other parts of the Olivet discourse. So, it appears that, because of the literal very great earthquake earth’s atmosphere will be filled with dust and debris sufficient to cut out most daylight.

However, this Matthew 24:29 scenario does not mean that what we now call stars (giant gas-balls) will fall to earth, but rather it will likely be such things as meteors or asteroids burning as they enter earth’s atmosphere.

Further proof of the literalness of these events comes from Jesus’ words in the parallel of Luke 21:25 where he speaks of “the roaring of the sea and the waves.”

CHRIST’S PAROUSIA – NOT IN THE FIRST CENTURY​

Although Jesus was and is present in spirit with his disciples from the time he sat down on God’s throne in heaven after his ascension, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show a post-resurrection ascension invisible “coming” that fulfils Jesus words about his return. Indeed, his actual future return is described as very visible—like lightning (Matt. 24:27, Luke 17:24) and “with power and great glory” in the literal sky (Matt. 24:30). We are also told that, “every eye will see him” (Rev. 1:7) a statement written after A.D. 70 (see Chapter 6). Although, Partial Preterists accept this future coming, their proposal that there was an earlier invisible return in A.D. 70 has no biblical basis and is founded upon the mistaken writings of the Jewish historian Josephus. Furthermore, Jesus stated that the visible sign of his coming would be the literal supernatural celestial phenomena of the darkening of the sun and moon etc., which did not happen in A.D. 70.

JESUS’ COMING ON THE CLOUDS – A LITERAL FUTURE EVENT​

Some Partial Preterists teach that Matthew 24:30 does not refer to the second coming of Jesus. In fact, N.T. Wright claims that it was “a symbol for a mighty reversal of fortunes within history and at the national level” (quoting Caird) and so simply meaning that the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem was the sign that Jesus was now enthroned in heaven as Israel’s Messiah by means of his ascension.

Also, a further “coming” is proposed concerning Jesus’ arrival in Jerusalem and being hailed as King by the crowds. So, the dilemma for Preterists is that they are presenting three returns/comings of Jesus:

He comes physically into Jerusalem and was acclaimed as King.

He comes in the clouds to the Father at his ascension.

He comes invisibly in A.D. 70 leading the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem.


This leaves little room for any Partial Preterist notion of a literal future return of Jesus. However, throughout the book of Revelation there is only one “coming” (Gk erchomai) of Jesus and it is future as the literal and visible glorious return of Jesus.

For “coming” #2 in Preterist thinking there are problems of mistranslation and misreading of Daniel 7:13, 14 which does not say that the Son of man went up to the Ancient of Days but that he “came to” or “reached” Him. In fact, this picture is reframed for us in Revelation 4 and 5 concerning the future throne room of God. Nevertheless, this does not concern God’s permanent throne to which Jesus ascended i.e., “ascended far above all the heavens” (Eph. 4:10; Heb. 4:14), but it refers to God’s temporary and movable throne used for judgment (Dan. 7:9; Ezek. 1:15-28). It is this throne that Jesus will come up to in the future so that he may receive both the Kingdom in Daniel 7:9, 13b, 14 and the seven-sealed scroll for dominion in Revelation 5:7-13. However, Daniel 7:13a, concerning “with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man came” is being referenced by Jesus in Matthew 24:30 which unlike the Preterist interpretation of this text is evidently referring to Jesus’ literal and visible glorious return like lightning in the future (Matt. 24:27, Luke 17:24) and not to his ascension.

ARMAGEDDON - NOT SYMBOLIC, BUT A LITERAL EVENT​

Although the book of Revelation does contain many symbols there are also many aspects that are quite literal, especially regarding end-times prophecy which parallels the prophecies of Jesus in the synoptic gospels. Furthermore, the other descriptions of the time-of–the–end battle of Armageddon in the Hebrew Scriptures are clearly quite literal such as the battles described in Zechariah 12 and 14. So, a careful study of all the passages related to Armageddon shows that they are not merely a symbol of the defeat of God’s enemies (Rev. 19:11-21).

THE MILLENNIUM – NOT SYMBOLIC, BUT A LITERAL 1,000 YEARS​

As with other timing events there is no need to turn the 1,000 years 0f Revelation 20 into a symbolic number. Indeed, all the early second century Christians understood the 1,000 years in the plain sense as a quite literal time period. These were: Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Commodianus, Methodius, and Lanctantius. Furthermore, the turning of this into a symbolic number creates several contradictory events in making things happen and not happen at the same time, for instance: Satan cannot simultaneously, “deceive the whole world” (Rev.12:9) and “deceive the nations no longer” (Rev. 20:3) at the same time as in the faulty Amillennialist interpretation used by Partial Preterists.

SATAN - NOT CURRENTLY BOUND​

The binding of Satan is recorded in Revelation 20:1-3 which states:

“Then I saw an angel descending from heaven. In his hand was the key to the abyss and a huge chain. 2He seized the Dragon—the ancient Serpent, who is the Devil and Satan—and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the abyss, then locked and sealed it over him so that he couldn’t deceive the nations anymore, until the one thousand years were completed. After this he must be released for a short time.”

The Partial Preterist position is taken because of their mistake of interpreting “the one thousand years” as symbolic. So, please see above for proof of the literalness of “the one thousand years.”

REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY IS A FALSE APPROACH​

Because all Preterists claim that Jesus’ prophecies concerned the end of the Jewish age they propose that God has no further purpose for Israel—a teaching that Israel is permanently excluded from any future role in God’s purpose. The initial details leading to this teaching were first presented in about the year 144 C.E. by the heretic Marcion because of his hatred for all things Jewish. The teaching was later developed and taught by Origen and then by Augustine in conjunction with his allegorical interpretation of prophecy, all of which became early orthodox Catholic teaching concerning Israel and became known also as supercessionism. The supposed basis for this teaching concerns Jesus’ words in Matthew 23:38, where he said concerning Israel that, “Your house is left to you desolate!” and so taken to mean that there is no further future for natural Israel in God’s purpose. This is viewed as an irrevocable divorce decree, indicating that God has no further interest in literal Israel or even a remnant of it. However, Jesus’ words here were directed to “the scribes (teachers of the Law) and Pharisees;” i.e., the religious leaders of Israel and not Israel as a nation. Furthermore, Jesus continued by saying: “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord” (Matt. 23:39). Indeed, the use of the phrase “until you say…” by Jesus has left the door open for these literal Jewish religious leaders to repent. So, this is not an irrevocable divorce decree for Israel, but rather it is a conditional statement. It is parallel to Jeremiah 3:8 where God gives Israel a certificate of divorce, but appeals to her saying: “Come back to me, wayward Israel...for I am merciful...I will not be angry with you forever” (vs.12). Additionally, the Apostle Paul likened the ‘body of God’s people’ to a cultivated garden olive tree from which some Jewish branches could be “broken off because of their unbelief” and to which some Gentile branches could then be grafted in (Rom. 11:16- 22). Then, he asks Gentile Christians in Rome, whom he classifies as individual branches from a wild olive tree:

“If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either” (Rom. 11: 17-21).


Indeed, the Christian “body of Christ” has not permanently “replaced” the individual Jews. The reason is explained by Paul, saying:

“And if they [the Jewish branches] do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you [Gentiles] were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!” (Rom. 11:23-24 NIV).


Furthermore, the prophecies for Israel should not be allegorized as is done by Partial Preterists. However, neither Jesus nor any of his emissaries allegorized these prophecies especially in view of his answer to the question, “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6) Jesus did not tell them that they asked about a wrong subject, but only that they were not to know the time for the restoring of the kingdom to Israel.

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul did not allegorize natural the prophecies concerning Israel. He made it very clear that Israel is not permanently rejected by God when he asks the rhetorical question, saying: “I ask, then, did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel” (Rom. 11:1-2 NIV).

Conclusion​

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Although Partial Preterists correctly acknowledge that Jesus’ return is a future visible return along with a future resurrection /rapture, they fail to realize that the great tribulation, return of Jesus, and the attack upon Jerusalem are foretold to be in relatively close proximity of time.

Indeed, to realize the faultiness of these Partial Preterist views and to grasp what is biblically true so as to know what signs to look for will guard against our falling for the growing deception that proposes that Matthew 24 has already been fulfilled and with the even more extreme view that Jesus has already returned.

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[LeeB]

Very interesting article Ray. I have studied this subject also as well as other beliefs like universal salvation, once saved always saved etc. Those who hold to these things are as committed to them as any other group is to theirs. Debates over many issues over the years have had little to no impact in changing minds. All people are free to believe whatever they want and there are literally thousands of ideas but there is only one true idea and those who think they have found it will not compromise. I post articles here that express my ideas but would be surprised if any here would agree. This situation should serve to prove that even if the genuine truth of God is one of those thousands it would would be drowned out by those thousands.

 

[Outcast]

When the term Partial Preterist is used, it includes a broad brush. Should I assume the original post is a copy-and-paste article? It looks like one. Have you read The War of the Jews?

 

[LeeB]

I do not know if Ray did a copy and paste but He puts his name as the author. I have read Josephus a longtime ago; antiquities, Jewish war , against Apion and his biography.

 

[Outcast]

Very interesting article Ray. I have studied this subject also as well as other beliefs like universal salvation, once saved always saved etc. Those who hold to these things are as committed to them as any other group is to theirs. Debates over many issues over the years have had little to no impact in changing minds. All people are free to believe whatever they want and there are literally thousands of ideas but there is only one true idea and those who think they have found it will not compromise. I post articles here that express my ideas but would be surprised if any here would agree. This situation should serve to prove that even if the genuine truth of God is one of those thousands it would would be drowned out by those thousands.

I have been on both sides of this type of discussion. The first view I learned in church and made sense at the time. I think that it is possible that God provided us a view of the war and the destruction of the Temple for a reason. In the end, I have leaned heavily on accepting fulfilled prophecy because it makes more sense to me. Not something to fight about because, for me, it would not change God's plan. It does, however, serve to bolster my faith.

 

[LeeB]

Have you in your studies looked at prophecy as it relates to what the unconverted do ? Concerning the church there is prophecy but concerning the enemy of God there is also prophecy. I know of neither of these that give any dates for fulfillment. You say that you lean heavily on the idea of fulfilled prophecy but with the differing views of those who are called Preterists just what are yours. In your view what has been fulfilled and what has not.

 

[Outcast]

This history of this issue is indeed long. I take a high view of prophecy, so I desire to take Jesus' words to heart. Whenever a passage makes sense, then I accept it as written (subject to verifying that the passage has not been altered over the years.)

This is why it is essential to read The War of the Jews. I'm not claiming it is scripture, but it is history. Also, look at other source that provide history of events in Israel at that time.

Jesus was speaking of the destruction of the Temple. His disciples had two questions:

Matt 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “(Q k#1) when will these things be, and (Q#2) what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

RE: Q#1

Matt 24:4-13 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Then the instruction: Matt 24:15-16 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:5-24 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” 7 And they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?” 8 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name’s sake. This will be your opportunity to bear witness. Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. You will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But not a hair of your head will perish. By your endurance you will gain your lives.

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

And, we need to keep in mind:

Matt 24:34 say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Matt 16: 27-28 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

The word generation is used 34 times in the New Testament, and the phrase “this generation” is used 20 times. They always refer to the people who were alive listening to the speaker.

NOTE: Only in The War of the Jews do we find a report of the people of Israel (and Josephus) claiming to see a chariot in the skies. Also, the warning of tribulation for the Jews was not said to end just because the Temple was destroyed.

 

[LeeB]

Matthew 24:3 When shall these things be ? This question was prompted by what Jesus said in Matthew 24:2 No doubt his disciples were very curious about the comment concerning the temple, I know I would be. The second question, what shall be the sign of thy coming and the end of the age ? Both questions were directly connected by the temple comment by Jesus. Both did indeed have future ramifications and what has never been considered is that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD was not what Jesus was commenting about when he spoke about the temple. That both the destruction of the temple and the sign of the return of Jesus would both be at the end of the age. To be clear, the temple Jesus was talking about is the third temple not the second. Daniel 9:24-27 , this is the 70 weeks prophecy. Take note that in verse Daniel 9:26 , is recorded the destruction of the second temple.
Daniel 9:27 , the he in this verse is the man of sin, the beast, the antichrist who makes a seven year covenant with ten nations, horns, toes. This covenant was to last seven years or in Jewish time, 360 days each year times seven equals 2,520 days. However the man of sin , in the middle of this week, 1,260 days, ends the covenant along with the sacrifices and offerings, but yet another 1,260 days remain for the great tribulation . This informs us that modern day Israel, those who do the sacrifices and offerings, are in this covenant with the ten horns as a little horn. Then on the wing of THE TEMPLE will come the abomination of desolation until the decreed destruction is poured out on him, the antichrist and his temple. Jesus spoke about the abomination of desolation. Paul spoke of the man of sin who would say that he is God. Daniel 11:36 The destruction of the third temple is current with the time of the abomination of desolation in Daniel 9:27 . Rome made no 7 year covenant with ten nations before or after the 70AD , rather Rome caused a dispersion of the Jews . Paul says in 2 Timothy 2:3 that an apostasy or falling away must come first for the man of sin to be revealed. This falling away is concerning those who claim to be Christians . There were none of these events in 70AD. 2 Timothy 2:4 agrees with Daniel 11:36 Consider the possibility that Jesus was talking about the third temple in Matthew 24:2 .

 

[Outcast]

As I have stated, there is no written record by an Apostle of the destruction of the Temple. I think that is what makes it so difficult for people to understand the events that took place at that time - so fulfilled prophecy is unknown by Christians. However, prophecy was fulfilled and history points to that fulfillment. I've copied some of the records from a book entitled by Currie, David B.. Rapture: The End-Times Error That Leaves the Bible Behind. I spent a lot of time examining this book and investigating the contents.

The first seven signs—the appearance of false messiahs; wars and rumors of wars; famines; earthquakes; state-sponsored religious persecution; the falling away of some Christians; and the worldwide preaching of the gospel—are not linked too closely in time with the Temple’s destruction. The disciples only knew they would happen while the Temple was still standing, as they were the warning of its demise. In contrast, the eighth sign—the desolating sacrilege of Daniel (gentile armies surrounding Jerusalem)—is accompanied by an urgent warning to flee immediately when it appears.

I first must consider that the second temple was indeed destroyed in 70 A.D. and that the stones were separated by the Roman soldiers gleaning the melted gold from between them. That is recorded in Josephus' writing. To those in Israel, it did happen in their "generation." The glitch for most people I've spoken with, there was no recording of this destruction by an Apostle, so it gets neglected as if it didn't happen. There is plenty of evidence in the written history of the time.
The word generation is used 34 times in the New Testament, and the phrase “this generation” is used 20 times. Every time, it refers to the people who were listening to the speaker.

Leading up to the Jewish-Roman War that culminated in the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D., there were several supposed messiahs in Judea who collected an army to fight the Romans. Every one of these messiahs was hunted down and killed by the Roman legions. Their followers were killed or sold into slavery. Josephus mentions these false messiahs: “Imposters and deceivers persuaded the multitude to follow them into the wilderness and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs that should be performed by the providence of God. And many that were prevailed on by them suffered the punishments of their folly” (AJ, XX, 8:6)

In his fourth-century commentary on the Olivet Discourse, St. Jerome also discusses these deceivers: “At the time of the Jewish captivity, there were many leaders who declared themselves to be Christs, so that while the Romans were actually besieging them, there were three factions within” (cited in GCC). This is a reference to the armies of Simon and John, who fought each other and the Sanhedrin’s followers inside Jerusalem while the Roman siege was underway outside the walls.

In the eighth century, Bede also recognized this prediction as fulfilled in the crisis of 70 A.D.: “For many came forward, when destruction was hanging over Jerusalem, saying that they were Christs” (on Mark 13:6, cited in GCC).

The decade before 70 A.D. began with rebellion in Britain and ended with rebellion in Judea. The Pax Romana, the Roman-imposed peace that reigned throughout the ancient world, was deteriorating. As if that were not bad enough, there was civil war within the city of Rome itself, among generals fighting for the throne. This fighting was one reason Vespasian suspended his efforts in the war with the Jews in 68 A.D. He “foresaw already the civil wars which were coming upon them, nay, that the very government was in danger” (WJ, IV, 8:1). He was also maneuvering into position for the throne himself. His troops declared him emperor on July 1, 69 A.D., when word reached his army headquarters that civil war was raging within the city of Rome itself. This was sign 2. Amazingly, Jesus said Christians should not be disturbed by these wars. “See that you are not alarmed; for this must take place, but the end is not yet” (24:6)

Many Christians today are aware of the famine that plagued the Jews in Jerusalem. the Apostle Paul wrote about it in his letter to the Corinthian Church. He seems to have been regularly collecting donations from the gentile Christians to ease the suffering of the Church in Judea (2 Cor. 8). Eusebius also documents the famine: “Under [Claudius] the world was visited with a famine, which writers that are entire strangers to our religion have recorded in their histories” (EH, II:8). What most are not aware of is the record of how people within the city were resorting to cannibalism. The skirmishes within the city resulted in factions destroying the food stores of the other groups within.

Modern Christians seem to be less aware that earthquakes frequently erupted during the decades leading to the destruction of Jerusalem. The city of Colossae was totally destroyed in an earthquake in the 50s. That was the end of the Church there, the same Church that Paul addressed in the letter to the Colossians. Perhaps the most famous earthquake of ancient times was the one in 63 A.D. in Pompeii. The ruins have been excavated by archeologists in our own day. (This earthquake is now famous because Pompeii was utterly destroyed by volcano in 79 A.D.) The earthquake of 63 A.D., along with others, would have been a warning to the Christians about three or four years before the Jewish-Rome War began.

Up until now, the signs have been rather general and impersonal, but now the tone changes: “They will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake” (Matt. 24:9). Christians would be called upon to endure tribulation and even death. This must have been a chilling prospect for the disciples. In Matthew 10:17–21, Jesus had predicted that even family members would turn their Christian relatives over to the authorities for punishment. Actually, persecution came early, very early, in the Church’s life. The Sanhedrin persecuted Christians in Jerusalem and used the synagogues as a base for persecution elsewhere in the empire. But the persecution would come not only from the Jewish leaders in the synagogues. Jesus tells His followers, “You will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.”

The Gentiles enthusiastically joined in persecuting the young Christian Church. Nor would this persecution be an anomaly within certain parts of the empire, escaping the attention of the emperors. Mark 13:9 and Luke 21:12 add that the Christians would be hauled before the highest authorities: the gentile governors and kings. The persecution Jesus predicts would be sanctioned by the government itself. This was a new development.

Ever since the day of Pentecost, the Christians had been persecuted by the Jewish religious leaders. But Rome had viewed this as a squabble between two groups of Jews and had not taken sides. As far as Rome was concerned, both groups were a bit of a problem because of their resistance to emperor worship. In July of 64 A.D., that all changed when two-thirds of Rome burned to the ground. Nero, in his desire to deflect the anger of Rome’s citizenry, singled out the Christians as the scapegoat. Rome officially sided with the Sanhedrin: the Christians were declared seditious. In this new persecution, the entire weight of the Roman political bureaucracy was brought to bear against the tiny Christian community.

The ancient Roman historian Tacitus has documented Nero’s persecution. Christians became hunted creatures in the empire. Many met their death in the Coliseum in Rome as the audiences cheered and jeered. Some were strapped to stakes in Nero’s gardens and burned alive as human torches (AIR, XV, 44)

Although intense, Nero’s persecution did not last even three years. When Jerusalem revolted in 66 A.D., Nero’s attention was diverted to the Jewish-Roman War. Finally in 68 A.D., the Roman army, along with the Praetorian guard, rose in rebellion against Nero. He fled from Rome, committing suicide in June of that year. Eusebius, along with the early Church writer Tertullian, points to Nero as the first Roman emperor to persecute the Christians as part of state strategy (EH, 11, 25). Nero would be followed by others even more ruthless than he, but Clement of Rome wrote that “the Neronian persecution had been a wholesale onslaught of reckless fury” (TBR, 28). This sign was sure to get the attention of the early Church. The end — the destruction of the Temple, to which all eight signs pointed — was approaching when the gentile state turned on the Christian Church.

We find evidence of this apostasy in the letters to the seven churches that John includes in The Apocalypse. The letter to the Hebrews was written in the decade preceding 70 A.D. and gives further evidence that all of this occurred as Jesus predicted. Times would be extremely difficult during the Great Tribulation of 64 to 67 A.D.

Apostle Paul states that in his lifetime, the Faith of the Church in Rome “is proclaimed in all the world.” Romans 1:8, Colossians 1:5–6. There was certainly no doubt in St. Paul’s mind that the gospel had gone out into the whole world. Although some Christians seem confused on this point today, the early Church certainly understood that the gospel had been preached to the entire world before 70 A.D.

Clement of Rome was bishop when the signs of the Olivet Discourse were being fulfilled (67–73 A.D.). He wrote that Peter and Paul had been martyred, but not before they “taught righteousness to the whole world, and [they came] to the extreme limit of the west” (FEC). Since both Peter and Paul were martyred before the fall of Jerusalem, Clement must have believed the seventh sign was fulfilled before the fall of Jerusalem.

Justin Martyr, born around the turn of the first century, wrote that “from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God” (FA, XXXIX).

Eusebius even connected the seventh sign to Jerusalem’s desolation: “The teaching of the new covenant was borne to all nations, and at once the Romans besieged Jerusalem and destroyed it and the Temple” (POG, I:VI). Eusebius reiterated the relationship Jesus enunciated. He said that the gospel would be preached, “and then the end will come” (Matt. 24:14)

The Olivet Discourse uses the word oikoumene at this point, which specifically means the civilized world, delineated at the time by the boundaries of the Roman Empire. In other words, the gospel would be preached throughout the entire empire. There is another word for world that designates the entire earth, kosmos. Kosmos appears later in this same chapter: “from the beginning of the world until now” (Matt. 24:21).

Since both words are used in the same passage, it seems quite certain that the Apostles were fully cognizant of these two concepts. Therefore, we can be confident that Jesus taught His disciples that the “end” of the Temple would follow the preaching of the gospel throughout the Roman Empire.

Even casual students of history are familiar with the desolation that foreign armies leave in their wake. But to a devout Jew, the mere presence of any gentile army in Judea would be considered a sacrilege. Add to this the fact that the Romans marched under the banner of an unclean bird, the eagle. For the Roman legions, “the entire religion of the Roman camp consisted in worshiping the ensigns, in swearing by the ensigns, and in preferring the ensigns before all the gods” (APO, XVI, 162). The Jews knew that the Roman legions would worship their ensign and their emperor upon victory.

John Chrysostom illustrates that the early Church linked the Matthew and Luke passages. “The abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate” (ANF on Matt. 24:15).
In the summer of 66 A.D., the Roman general Cestius Gallus attacked Jerusalem in response to the cessation of the sacrifices for Nero in the Temple. He actually led his soldiers up to the gates of the Temple, and many Jews thought the Romans had won the battle. The Temple was about to fall. For some unknown reason, however, Cestius unexpectedly retreated.

During the initial withdrawal of troops at the news of Nero’s suicide, it seems that the Romans had left Jerusalem entirely free from siege. This error was quickly remedied, but there was a short period during which no Roman army was surrounding Jerusalem. Vespasian’s exit did not stop the outlaw Zealots from waging war against each other. One group of them had holed up in Jerusalem for the relative safety it offered. Those within Jerusalem would not allow anyone to leave for fear they would help those outside the city. The outlaw Zealots outside the city would not allow any to leave for fear they were spies.

There are Jews who did flee the city. “The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, entrusted to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella.… And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem … the judgment of God at length overtook … and totally destroyed that generation of impious men” (EH, III, 5:86)

As for “the sign of the Son of man in the Heaven,” lest we think that both historians were just gullible ancients, Josephus assures his readers that these events were hard to believe and credible only because of the eyewitnesses involved: "I suppose [this] account … would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals."

“There was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year.… Before the Jews’ rebellion … so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright daytime; which lasted for half an hour.… Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner court of the Temple … was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night.… The men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord.… So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them.… A few days after … before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds.… Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner court of the Temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, ‘Let us remove hence.’ ”

We must be careful not to assume that the coming of the Son of man on clouds means that the Son must be coming to earth. Jesus lifted the “Son of man” language directly out of Daniel 7:13–14, so we must respect that context.

As for seven heads and ten horns:

This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; The interesting twist from our twenty-first-century perspective is that there were two ancient cities surrounded by seven hills. Almost every modern student of ancient civilizations is aware that Rome is surrounded by seven hills. Many modern students do not know, however, that Jerusalem is also built upon seven hills. Josephus even records the names of these hills: “Zion, Acra, Moriah, Bezetha, Millo, Ophel, and Antonio” (WJ, V, 5:8).

John explains that the seven heads symbolize not only the seven hills of Jerusalem, but also the seven kings who ruled the beast.

Revelation 17:10 (ESV) they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come, he must remain only a little while.

The JulioClaudio lineage of Roman emperors began with Julius Caesar; then came Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, and Claudius I. This would correspond to the method used by ancient Jews when counting emperors. These are the “five [who] have fallen.” Nero reigned after these five. Therefore, at the time of St. John’s vision, Nero is the who “is.” A seventh Caesar is spoken of as “the other [king who] has not yet come.” This would be Vespasian.

The dragon’s ten horns are the ten kings of the provinces of the Roman Empire: Italy, Achaia, Asia, Syria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain, and Germany.

But, as I have stated, the last few chapters of Revelation do not pertain to the destruction of the temple but to the end of days. Come Lord Jesus.

 

[LeeB]

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Book #3, Chapter 23:1

Irenaeus, Against Heresies. Book 5, Chapter 30, Paragraph 3

 

[Outcast]

Thank you for the references LeeB.
Much could be written and surmised by these references - and questioned. Gematria for 666 also, from the period between 66 A.D. on would fit Nero as well. Since the book of Revelations do not contain any reference to the destruction of the 2nd Temple (which would be MAJOR for the Apostle John) the date of the writing being toward the end of the first century is suspected to be in error. However, there is a future fulfillment expected, as I previously stated. Your reference regarding "the most approved and ancient copies(3) [of the Apocalypse" by Irenaeus indicates a common problem for us. I have no knowledge of the contents of any other copies. Further, Irenaeus refers to "ancient" copies as if the book was written well into the past.

 

[LeeB]

According to historians and Roman records Augustus was the first Emperor of Rome. This would make Nero the 5th not the 6th Emperor. Do some research on this. Julius Ceaser desired to be a king but was killed by the Roman senate as the Rrepublic was yet present. Under Augustus all power of the senate ended, Augustus proclaimed himself Emperor and the senate gave him all power. Again, Nero was the 5th Emperor of Rome, not the 6th.

 

[Outcast]

According to historians and Roman records Augustus was the first Emperor of Rome. This would make Nero the 5th not the 6th Emperor. Do some research on this. Julius Ceaser desired to be a king but was killed by the Roman senate as the Rrepublic was yet present. Under Augustus all power of the senate ended, Augustus proclaimed himself Emperor and the senate gave him all power. Again, Nero was the 5th Emperor of Rome, not the 6th.

Only if we do not recognize Julius Caesar - the actual first emperor (dictator for life) when Rome when from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire.

 

[LeeB]

There is no doubt that the death toll from 70 AD was great at about a million Jews and Romans combined but that of Revelation is about half the worlds population and effects all nations not just one city. There is a cup of Gods wrath that will be poured out and all the nations of the Earth will drink it. Jeremiah 25:15-33 , Revelation 14:9-10 , Psalm 60:3 , Psalm 75:8 , Isaiah 51:17 . These all refer to the same cup of wrath. All nations drink billions from all nations of Earth die. This is the GREAT TRIBULATION that if Jesus did not return no one would be left alive, a time like no other that will never be repeated. Jerusalem is the harlot city, the capital city that sits on and controls the beast nation Judah/modern day Israel. Revelation makes it clear that in the future this Israel will be aligned with Satans false messiah until the man of sin says he is God, then the Jews will reject him because they have always known God has never been a man. This will begin the GREAT TRIBULATION , the time of Jacobs trouble. You cannot have more than one time that is said to be the worst of all times. During the holocaust 6 million Jews died under Hitlers final solution far worse than 70 AD . Revelation 11 has two witnesses performing miracles and later killed by the beast only to be raised from the dead. Daniel 12:1 again mentions the time of trouble, agree exactly with what Jesus said and notice it also mentions names written in a book, referring to the book of life. This is proof that the great tribulation is yet future just before the return of Jesus and the first resurrection, which did not happen in 70 AD .
Ezekiel 5:9 , Joel 2:2 . Deuteronomy 28:15-68 and Leviticus 26:14-45 are the curses God would bring upon the Israelites if they did not obey God. In Leviticus 26 it is intresting that after each punishment Israel was given that if they continued to disobey God would punish them 7 times more. Leviticus 26:24 , Leviticus 26:28 . This sevenfold punishment would reach its zenith in the great tribulation of the latter days just as Moses told them. Deuteronomy 4:23-31 , Deuteronomy 3:29 .

 

[LeeB]

Only if we do not recognize Julius Caesar - the actual first emperor (dictator for life) when Rome when from the Roman Republic to the Roman Empire.

No historian recognizes Julius Caesar as the first Emperor. There is much information about this on the net. From Encyclopedia Britannica article, Who was Augustus? . Jewish Virtual Library article , Augustus. Wikipedia article, Augustus. World History Encyclopedia article, Augustus’s political social and moral reforms. Yale University article Augustus. National Geographic article, Who was Augustus Caesar. Many more. These sources are far more knowledgeable than I am on this subject and have access to ancient Roman records.

 

[LeeB]

Zechariah 14:1-21 is the “ on that day” 70 AD ?
Matthew 24:29 , immediately after the great tribulation of (70AD), the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven and the power of the heavens will be shaken. Isaiah 24:23 , 13:9-13 , Acts 2:20 , Revelation 6:12, At that time (70AD) the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven and all the people in Jerusalem will mourn. Jeremiah 4:28 , They will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. He will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call and they will gather his elect from the the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This is describing the actual return of Christ immediately after the great tribulation and the resurrection of the elect. Were the latter days 70 AD ?

Daniel 12:11 the time the sacrifices are abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up. Daniel asked Gabriel in verse 8, when will these things be, and Gabriel’s reply gives the answer, the time of the end. 70 AD was not the time of the end. Daniel 12:2-4 is the time of the end. Daniel 12:1 mentions again a time of distress or tribulation but at that time a resurrection will happen. Revelation 7:14 the innumerable multitude comes out of the great tribulation. Revelation 15:2 The prophets have a lot to say about the great tribulation, abomination of desolation and the antichrist if you diligently search .

 

[Outcast]

Brother, I don't understand why you may believe that I have not done a diligent search. That fact that I can see parallel prophecy in the gospels, one for the coming takeover of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple and one for the End of Days, is not a show stopper for anyone.

The difference between a "great tribulation" and a "not-so-great tribulation" has a lot to do with your location in the area.

I realize your position on this brother, but I see not one end, but two. Nothing I am saying cancels out the "end of days." I still expect that event. Considering the possible reason for John writing revelation and the need to warn those Christians living in Jerusalem of the coming Roman army, the people at that time may see the words in their terms and understand. We, however, may not. I, too, look for a return of Yeshua and for the signs. What I don't see is where we will be able to flee to. The people in Jerusalem had a destination that took them away from the destruction. That is an instruction that appears to have no application for us.

 

[LeeB]

The elect of God do not need to flee. The sealing of the elect occurs prior to the beginning of the great tribulation in Revelation 7:4. This seal is on all the elect dead or alive. Those of the elect who are alive and remain have Gods protection as stated in Revelation 3:10. The elect will be as Jesus was when he was on Earth, Jesus was sealed, John 6:27 , 1 John 4:17 . The elect will undergo a change in nature and this seal that was on Christ will be on them, the elect will, as Christ, have the divine nature, 2 Peter 1:4. . The elect will have direct access to God as Jesus did and whatever they ask of God will be done. Now that all the elect are sealed and made impeccable the next change will come at the return of Jesus. The dead elect will rise and those alive will be changed into spirit beings. They meet Christ in the air and Psalm 149:1-9. Verse one of this Psalm 149:1 is fulfilled in Revelation 14:2 . Psalm 149:9 is fulfilled in Revelation 20:4, Micah 4:5 . Isaiah 54:17 , no weapon formed against the elect shall prosper. So then, wherever God is the elect are protected.

 

[Outcast]

The elect of God do not need to flee. The sealing of the elect occurs prior to the beginning of the great tribulation in Revelation 7:4. This seal is on all the elect dead or alive. Those of the elect who are alive and remain have Gods protection as stated in Revelation 3:10. The elect will be as Jesus was when he was on Earth, Jesus was sealed, John 6:27 , 1 John 4:17 . The elect will undergo a change in nature and this seal that was on Christ will be on them, the elect will, as Christ, have the divine nature, 2 Peter 1:4. . The elect will have direct access to God as Jesus did and whatever they ask of God will be done. Now that all the elect are sealed and made impeccable the next change will come at the return of Jesus. The dead elect will rise and those alive will be changed into spirit beings. They meet Christ in the air and Psalm 149:1-9. Verse one of this Psalm 149:1 is fulfilled in Revelation 14:2 . Psalm 149:9 is fulfilled in Revelation 20:4, Micah 4:5 . Isaiah 54:17 , no weapon formed against the elect shall prosper. So then, wherever God is the elect are protected.

Well, I thought we were using the statements of Jesus when He answered His disciples’ questions regarding the end times. That answer included instructions to flee. I guess I must be confused.

 

[LeeB]

Proverbs 28:1, Psalm 27:1-2 , Psalm 46:2-3 , Romans 8:31
If the elect are sealed in the future and there are extremely few of them that are alive and remain at this time and they are scattered to the four winds with the seal of God in their foreheads. Read Ezekiel 9:1-11
You need not flee at this future time because Gods has sealed you.