General Trinity Challenge

[Lori Jane]

A comment thread on my coming out video​

My Story of Waking Up in Pioneer School | #exjw Lori Jane - YouTube​

david crane​

8 days ago
i watched all of your video... its good... im glad you are not "throwing out the baby with the bathwater"... and i like how you questioned and said yourself "truth should stand the scrutiny"(paraphrased) i hope you find the Truth... i have a challenge... you said get just you and your bible and study yourself... i would ask that you ALONE(please dont ask anyone... but prayerto The Lord) if Jehovah is The Saviour ALONE(And HE is)..... how is Jesus ALSO The Savior [Isa 43:11 KJV] 11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour. [Luk 2:11 KJV] 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. i pray for you.


Finding Lori Jane
3 days ago
Hi David, Thank you for your prayers. This is how I understand the scriptures after praying and meditating on it. Jehovah is THE Savior - the ultimate or supreme savior. Jesus is our savorior as commissions by Jehovah. He is Jehovah's agent. He never claimed to be Jehovah - he always claimed to be his son. Jehovah annointed him to be our savior. He is our Messiah - our anointed saviour.

If I own a company and have a CEO run the company for me per my rules and procedures and that means at the end of the year the CEO gives out bonuses. Did I give our the bonuses or did my CEO? The answer is we both did but I'm the ultimate one who really gave out the bonuses. My CEO was acting as my agent and carried out the act. It doesn't make my CEO me! You could say he has an authority essence like me but he is not me.

david crane​

3 days ago
@Finding Lori Jane ok. (A company) That is a similar analogy of how Trinitatians look at God thru the scripture 1 John 5:7. God is a Company(or family if you will) with different agents(or members of the family if you will) WHO perform different assignments. The Father of The same Family sends The Son to instill The Holy Ghost. All God of the same Family working together for our Good.

1 John 5:7 KJV — For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

I remember I think you had said the Trinity did not make sense to you early on... for me... as a Trinitarian... this concept answers many of the questions I had in scripture that would otherwise leave me wondering... like. How could The Father call Jesus. O God...in one verse( hebrews 1:8) and Jesus still be a man and die as the human sacrifice necessary for salvation.

Thank you for answering me and for just praying to Jehovah about it.

 

[Lori Jane]

1 John 5:7 KJV — For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

5:8 Spirit and the water Throughout this letter, John identifies the Spirit as a testifier that confirms the truth (see 1 John 3:24; 4:2, 13).


Some Bible translations, such as the King James Version, insert an additional clause between v. 7 and 5:8 (indicated by italics): “For there are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three who bear witness in earth, the spirit and the water and the blood; and these three are one.” This clause emphasizes the oneness of God, as Father, Word (Jesus), and Spirit. This Trinitarian formula, called the Johannine Comma, is evident elsewhere in the nt, but it is stated explicitly in this addition. It is included in only four Greek manuscripts dating between the 14th and 18th centuries; it also is noted in the margin of five additional manuscripts, added in each case by a much later editorial hand. This means that it does not appear until the second millennium in any Greek manuscripts.

John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016), 1 Jn 5:8.

---

How could The Father call Jesus. O God...in one verse( hebrews 1:8) and Jesus still be a man and die as the human sacrifice necessary for salvation.

1:8 scepter The Greek word used here refers to a staff used by a ruler; it serves as a symbol of leadership and authority. The Son (here called God following the Greek ot) rules with a scepter of righteousness, indicating that His kingdom is characterized by righteousness.


John D. Barry et al., Faithlife Study Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012, 2016), Heb 1:8.

---

Regarding Heb 1:8
The facts show that the Trinitarian interpretation and translation is impossible and the writer is rather describing how the exalted Jesus now has the authority of God's throne. [Source]

 

[Lori Jane]

God's God

A very serious problem with the Trinitarian translation is the resulting implications of their translation.

"But to the Son, [God] says, Your throne, 'O God, is forever and ever. The sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom/kingship. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your partners.'" (Hebrews 1:8-9)

The result of this translation is that God has a God and God's God anoints God so that God's God would make God to be above God's peers. It's unbelievably ludicrous in multiple ways.

Even further, if we follow the "O God" translation to it's logical conclusion, we have even more preposterous consequences. Consider verses such as Psalm 43:4, "I shall praise You, O God, my God." In Scripture, when anyone addresses the God of Israel as "O God" it means they are acknowledging that the addressee is their God. For this reason, it is absurd to suggest God the Father would address anyone as "O God" since it would imply the son is the Father's God.

The Trinitarian translation results in a situation where God addressed someone else as God and then says that God's God anoints God so that God will be above God's peers. Let the reader appreciate the utter implausibility of such a claim. [Source]

 

[Lori Jane]

David's Reply:

@Finding Lori Jane i will take challenge, but first... i didnt address something you said.. you said He never claimed to be God... i believe He claimed to be God(I AM HE) to the pharisees.(i cant see any other rational reason HE would make this Statement) and before i take that challenge(i will answer it) i would ask one question...

bonuses are great for employees(like us).... but the very first rule of this company you speak of.. is that worship is NOT to be done to ANYTHING under heaven or earth but to Jehovah. What verse do you have to show us that its ok For the Owner of the company not abide by HIS own rules?-->

[Heb 1:6 KJV] 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

there are a lot of "ideas" floating around and ive even had some myself that were proven wrong by scripture.. so... biblically speaking... the standard is dont worship anything but Jehovah... the sin would be worshipping Jesus if HE is not Jehovah. set by the "rules" of the company.

 

[Lori Jane]

i will take challenge

Actually, it is YOUR challenge per your first reply <g>. But let's continue...

i believe He claimed to be God(I AM HE) to the pharisees.(i cant see any other rational reason HE would make this Statement)

I believe you're speaking of the greek "EGO EIMI" as in John 8:58 where Trinitarians believe that is a term for the divine name or reference to Jehovah.

Jesus used the term elsewhere in John where it is quite clear he did not intend to use a divine name or reference. For example, the Samaritian woman said to Jesus, "I know that the Christ is coming," and Jesus responded to her, "I am who speaks to you." It should be obvious to anyone that Jesus uses the words ego eimi not for the purposes of claiming to be Jehovah but to let her know he is the Christ who she just mentioned. And we should not forget that Christ is God's Christ, His Anointed one (see Acts 3:18; 4:26; Revelation 11:15; 12:10).

The Blind man in the very next chapter identifies himself with the words ego eimi, "I AM" (John 9:9). The thought never occurred to anyone that the blind man was uttering a divine name for God. This type of language was common everyday language used by Greek speakers. Greek speakers used this expression much like we would say, "It is me." For example, when the disciples saw Jesus walking on water they were terrified for they thought they were seeing a spirit but Jesus said, "Do not be afraid, I am" (Matthew 14:27; John 6:20; cf. Luke 24:39) which obviously means, "Don't be afraid, it is not a spirit, it is me." "The blind man said ego eimi for the same reason. There is no need to suppose ego eimi is a necessary reference to God's divine name otherwise the blind man also used the divine name to identify himself.

And respectfully if that is the best scripture you have that proves to you Jesus is God then I feel that is not strong evidence. Similar to how Watchtower uses one scripture - a parable about the faithful and discrete slave - to mean it is a prophecy about the governing body. It is just weak and evidence of eisegesis.

there are a lot of "ideas" floating around and ive even had some myself that were proven wrong by scripture.. so... biblically speaking... the standard is dont worship anything but Jehovah... the sin would be worshipping Jesus if HE is not Jehovah. set by the "rules" of the company.

As far continuing the company owner and his Chief Operating Officer (COO) analogy. If the owner was the only one allowed to receive any honors for the company then so be it. But if he gave permission or actually make it company policy that the COO also receive honors then that would be ok. Hebrews 1:6 is the company memo that was sent out saying the company's owners very special COO had proven himself and was worthy of due honor. Everyone would understand it wouldn't be the same honor given to the owner of the company but it was special honor that was sanctioned by the owner.

In the Bible, proskyneo "worship" was something you did before any higher authority. Because God is a higher authority, people gave God proskyneo "worship." Because angels were a higher authority, Lot gave him proskyneo "worship." Because King David was a higher authority, their Lord, the Israelites gave him proskyneo "worship" (1 Chronicles 29:20; 1 Kings). There are many, many examples in Scripture of people giving proskyneo "worship." It would even be appropriate to give proskyneo "worship" to a teacher because you respect his teaching authority.

But ULTIMATE worship goes to Jehovah. Relative worship goes to Jesus. Worshiping Jesus does not make him God. We are giving him due worship because he is the Son of God, he is our Messiah and he died for us.

IMHO worshiping Jesus AS Jehovah is dishonoring to him and to Jehovah. And hence why we don't find any scriptures that directly come out and say Jesus is God. It is all theory read INTO scripture to attempt to support a concept that is man made and not biblical.