General Endless suffering - is it really necessary?

[Aristid]

Hello, brothers and sisters! I wanted to ask a question about Job and suffering in general. Why, in Job's case, did the suffering last only for a limited period, but for us - how lucky? And most of us seem to be out of luck. Suffering and deprivation can begin immediately after conception and never end until death. Are we more spiritual than Job? If the troubles that lasted for a limited period almost crushed Job, then how can Christians withstand the endless stream of hardships and misfortunes? Is it normal? It hardens the heart. A person experiences constant doubts about his need for God. The Gospel says that Jesus will not break a broken cane and will not extinguish a smoking flax. But doesn't constant ignoring of prayers, natural needs and total silence break it? I don't understand such parenting.

 

[LeeB]

The blame for all the suffering and death is not on God or Christ but on Adam and Satan. Sin brings many extremely negative consequences culminating in death, none of this by Gods doing. If you carefully read the the story of Adam, Eve, the serpent and God you should see that God did much to guide Adam into making the right decision between the two trees . God stopped short of stuffing the fruit from the tree of life into Adams mouth. Adam harkened to the voice of Eve Genesis 3:17 over the voice of his God. Adam loved Eve more than God. Adam knew what he was doing, he was not deceived. 1 Timothy 2:14 This is why it is as in Adam all sin not as in Eve. The result was that sin passed on to all Adams descendants and that sin is the cause of every evil thing humanity has done. Satan was the chief instigator who knew he could get to Adam through his wife. Later the law was given to further define the knowledge of good and evil from the forbidden tree and both produced death, not life. This was Adams choice, it was God who gave him what he chose. God greatly desired Adam to make the right choice but had to allow this choice to be by Adams free will. Even though God knew Adam would fail God still let it be Adams choice. What lessons can we learn from all of this ? Do we blame God or Jesus ? Give this some very serious thought.

 

[Outcast]

I think difficulty lies with the comparison of everlasting suffering with the idea of "destruction of the body and soul." People don't want to believe that their family members who chose the world over Christ Jesus are going to suffer forever. So, we play scrabble with scripture to ease our minds.

 

[LeeB]

As far as I understand the incorrigible suffer total annihilation. This is also called blasphemy against the Holy Spirit or unpardonable sin. Also it seems that one must have the Holy Spirit to commit this sin. Hebrews 10:26-31 , Hebrews 6:4-6 , Matthew 12:31-32 Unconverted people cannot commit the unpardonable sin. You can’t blaspheme a spirit you do not have.

 

[Bruce Lee]

Aristid, you raise a good question.

I found this article which also tries to come to grips with it.

Why Does God Permit Wickedness?

Why did I not die at birth? Why did I not perish when I came from the womb? 12 Why were there knees to receive me And breasts to nurse me? (Job 3:11, 12) Why do you hide your face And consider…

preachfromthehousetops.com

Here is one pertinent paragraph:

However, since the scriptures do not explicitly spell this out for us this is only one possible reason. We may in time learn how much was truly at stake. We must realize that for an issue to take more than 6,000 years to settle, involving the lives of billions of people and perhaps millions of angels, it cannot be that simple. It must be much more complicated than we have outlined. For now we must face the reality that with this present life comes injustice, pain and suffering yet not give in to doubting God when he tells us he loves us.

 

[Bruce Lee]

I think difficulty lies with the comparison of everlasting suffering with the idea of "destruction of the body and soul." People don't want to believe that their family members who chose the world over Christ Jesus are going to suffer forever. So, we play scrabble with scripture to ease our minds.

Are you saying you believe in eternal torment?

 

[Outcast]

Are you saying you believe in eternal torment?

I'm saying that there are passages that speak of it and passages that speak of "destruction. It appears that we choose one side or the other for personal preference, even to the point of claiming to know God's plan. I think that there is everlasting torment (for I think that there is a reason we are told of it), but I don't like to think of family or friends enduring that.

 

[Bruce Lee]

I'm saying that there are passages that speak of it and passages that speak of "destruction. It appears that we choose one side or the other for personal preference, even to the point of claiming to know God's plan. I think that there is everlasting torment (for I think that there is a reason we are told of it), but I don't like to think of family or friends enduring that.

I just don't think it's possible to be eternally tormented, we would just die.

Once you are dead, you can't feel anything?

That's how I think of it.

Maybe that's my JW indoctrination??

 

[LeeB]

We are a mortal soul and the life we have now is temporary. There would have to be instant life after death, consciousness, awareness in order to suffer anything. If we were already immortal souls then salvation would be reduced to going to an idea of heaven, thought of as a place, as our reward. If we do not attain to salvation the we go to a place called hell. Either way one goes it is to a place. Salvation is not a place it is life itself, it is living forever or being dead forever. The dead cannot suffer or even worship Yahweh, the dead no nothing. Adam was to choose between two trees, one life and one death and he chose death. The second Adam chose life and is life. Rather than eating continue to eat the fruit of dead we now have chosen to eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood otherwise there is no life. Do you see that the same choice Yahweh gave Adam HE gives to us. Therefore choose life and live.

 

[Outcast]

We are a mortal soul and the life we have now is temporary. There would have to be instant life after death, consciousness, awareness in order to suffer anything. If we were already immortal souls then salvation would be reduced to going to an idea of heaven, thought of as a place, as our reward. If we do not attain to salvation the we go to a place called hell. Either way one goes it is to a place. Salvation is not a place it is life itself, it is living forever or being dead forever. The dead cannot suffer or even worship Yahweh, the dead no nothing. Adam was to choose between two trees, one life and one death and he chose death. The second Adam chose life and is life. Rather than eating continue to eat the fruit of dead we now have chosen to eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood otherwise there is no life. Do you see that the same choice Yahweh gave Adam HE gives to us. Therefore choose life and live.

While my logical side can ponder this, my spiritual side tells me that I must see how this rationale matches with these:

Daniel 12:2 ESV And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46 ESV And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Revelation 14:9-11 ESV And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[LeeB]

Matthew 10:28 There is an error in this verse that should be obvious, the word soul is used when it should be spirit. We know that a person is a soul, the combination of body and human spirit. Killing the soul would be annihilation because both body and spirit would cease to exist and that is what this verse it telling us. Fear HIM who can kill both body and SPIRIT, the complete soul, in the lake of fire, the second death. Daniel 12:1 Only those whose names are in the book of life will be delivered. These two verses give no exact timing, however they speak of those in the book of life and obviously those whose names are not. Revelation 20:15 These verses in Daniel are covering a huge slice of time. Psalm 69:28 , Revelation 3:5 , Revelation 20:10 Satan, a spirit being is cast into the lake of fire, this does not destroy Satan . The structure of this verse concerning the torment forever is for Satan and his angels, Revelation 12:7-10 is a connecting verse, the “they” in Revelation 20:10 are Satan and his angels the reference to the beast and false prophet is only making mention that these two were thrown in beforehand. These two were humans who committed the unpardonable sin, the lake of fire to them is the second death, everlasting death. They will not be alive or suffer everlasting torment only Satan and his angels will. Matthew 25:46 says everlasting punishment not punishing. Revelation 14:9-11 Hebrews 10:26-27 is the situation the people find themselves in , Isaiah 26:11 , Psalm 21:9 , Malachi 4:1 . These people know their fate, they are afraid and have no rest day or night. The smoke rises forever in like manner to Revelation 19:3 a symbol of the permanence of the destruction. There is a raging fire ready to consume them. Yahweh will not torcher people for everlasting, HE has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Ezekiel 33:11 Would a God of love and mercy torcher the wicked forever ?

 

[Outcast]

Matthew 10:28 There is an error in this verse that should be obvious, the word soul is used when it should be spirit. We know that a person is a soul, the combination of body and human spirit. Killing the soul would be annihilation because both body and spirit would cease to exist and that is what this verse it telling us. Fear HIM who can kill both body and SPIRIT, the complete soul, in the lake of fire, the second death.

It is not my wish to prolong this examination, brother, for I have yet to be given a concrete understanding of this topic.

I do think I should point out that our view of the difference between "soul" and "spirt" is not as clear as we would like to think. Scripture treats both terms interchangeably.

The Greek word for soul is found in Mat 10:28 in our manuscripts. Perhaps the idea of killing the soul is meant to separate the spirit from the body? It seems that this verse causes a dilemma, in the we know that God breathed into Adam and created a "living being (soul)." There is something missing here, as the words spoken by Yeshua have to stand as is, unless I can discover that the words were amended by man at some point.

Scripture shows that "soul" and "spirit" have the same attributes:

Jn 12:27 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour.

Similarly, we read Mary’s words in Luke 1:46–47: And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, (Parallelism?)

We see that sometimes, translators define the Hebrew word for "soul" as "life." In the following passage, the word in manuscript is actually "soul" instead of "life."

1 Ki 17:21–22 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child’s life(soul) come into him again.” And the LORD listened to the voice of Elijah. And the life(soul) of the child came into him again, and he revived

Additionally, people who have died and gone to heaven or hell are referred to as “spirits”

Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

1 Pet 3:18–19 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison

However:

Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

Re 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Ge 35:18 And as her soul was departing (for she was dying), she called his name Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

I will wait on Yahweh to provide knowledge or accept that He will not. In either case, I will press on. Yahweh will have mercy on whom He chooses and compassion on whom He chooses.

 

[LeeB]

John 12:27 The total being, body and spirit, was troubled.
Luke 1:46-47 Mary’s total being , body and spirit magnified God and her human spirit rejoiced, the part of her that is sentient and able to rejoice .
1 Kings 17:21-22 The child’s spirit left the body at death and the union of the soul was broken, oh let him become a soul again, complete, the broken union repaired. Without the spirit the body is dead, the flesh/body profits nothing, it is the spirit that gives life.
Hebrews 12:23 It is the spirit that must be made perfect the fleshly..g body does not enter the kingdom. Cast such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:5
1 Peter 3:18-19 Jesus was murdered while in the flesh, while a human, a soul. Made alive in the spirit, Romans 8:11
Revelation 6:9 To see a soul is to see a person, you cannot see their spirit.
Revelation 20:4 Souls/people who had been beheaded , now in vision John see these people in the kingdom with Christ
Genesis 35:18 The process of death, her spirit would soon depart and she would be dead no longer a soul.

The account of the creation of Adam is the standard in understanding of body, spirit and soul throughout all scripture. This cannot change as it is foundational. When Greek translators came across these words they did not understand this and made errors. Even in the Strongs concordance the word soul in Strongs G5590 &. G4151 by not understanding the truth of Adams creation the translators butchered the true meaning of the Hebrew word nephesh H5315 . What Adam was and we are has not , cannot and will not change. All human beings are a soul, the combination of body and spirit.

 

[Bruce Lee]

Matthew 10:28 There is an error in this verse that should be obvious, the word soul is used when it should be spirit.

Where Jesus says dont be afraid of those that can kill the body, he means we can be killed by men, but still be resurrected. That is our chances of being a soul (psyche)/life again rests with God.

Jesus warns however that God can choose not to resurrect us and therefore not being a soul/have life again, that is we are thrown into geennē / the garbage dump. (sometimes poorly translated as hell)

Here is a reference https://2001translation.org/notes/soul

Different Bibles have translated the Greek word psyche ....... in many ways, including soul and life. However, psyche literally means something that breathes. It’s only used in the Bible to describe breathing animals and humans. It can also mean life or your inner person.

The Greek word for soul is found in Mat 10:28 in our manuscripts. Perhaps the idea of killing the soul is meant to separate the spirit from the body? It seems that this verse causes a dilemma, in the we know that God breathed into Adam and created a "living being (soul)." There is something missing here, as the words spoken by Yeshua have to stand as is, unless I can discover that the words were amended by man at some point.

I agree, when killing the soul you are seperating spirit from body. Meaning the pneuma / breath is no longer going in and out of him.

Context dictates the meaning.

Here is a reference that also talks about the confusion created by different translations.

Breath or Spirit? — 2001 Translation of the Bible

(none)

2001translation.org

 

[LeeB]

How I understand the spirit in man. Job 32:8 We all have this human spirit stored in an earthen vessel or tent , 2 Corinthians 4:7 , 2 Peter 1:12-14 . What Yahweh makes perfect is not the tent or the earthen vessel but the spirit in man. 1 Corinthians 5:5 , Hebrews 12:23 . We, you and I, are a spirit in a temporary dwelling. In this condition we are mortal souls hoping in God and Christ for a dual change, that of body and spirit. The body being changed into incorruptible spirit and our spirits taking on the divine nature of Yahweh. 2 Peter 1:4 , Ephesians 4:24 , 2 Corinthians 3:18 . If a person with the holy spirit commits the unpardonable sin Yahweh will kill the entire soul, the body and the spirit in the lake of fire. Matthew 10:28 Yes men can kill your body but not your spirit only God can do that. At death the union of body and spirit is broken, the spirit goes back to God in a totally dormant state Jesus called sleep but the body, tent or earthen vessel returns to the dust. Personally I see no mystery here or the need for additional information and I do not think men have tampered with scripture excepting Matthew 10:28 and I attribute this to ignorance in translation .

 

[Aristid]

Aristid, you raise a good question.

I found this article which also tries to come to grips with it.

Why Does God Permit Wickedness?

Why did I not die at birth? Why did I not perish when I came from the womb? 12 Why were there knees to receive me And breasts to nurse me? (Job 3:11, 12) Why do you hide your face And consider…

preachfromthehousetops.com

Thank you. This is a wonderful article. I also liked these thoughts: However, since the scriptures do not explicitly spell this out for us this is only one possible reason. We may in time learn how much was truly at stake. We must realize that for an issue to take more than 6,000 years to settle, involving the lives of billions of people and perhaps millions of angels, it cannot be that simple. It must be much more complicated than we have outlined. For now we must face the reality that with this present life comes injustice, pain and suffering yet not give in to doubting God when he tells us he loves us.In the meantime, no one that stumbles and loses their faith in God due to tragic circumstances beyond their control goes unnoticed by God. (Matt. 10:29-31; 18:6,7) You will receive an opportunity under much better circumstances in the future with the aid of a sympathetic, kind and understanding high priest to achieve an unending life totally free of suffering. (Rev. 21:3,4)

I believe that God can allow very long suffering so that people can glorify the image of God embedded in us, even when they lose faith. After all, many non-believers continue to show kindness, love, mercy and devotion. They do not obey God with their minds. But they continue to obey him, following the call of the heart - the voice of God, sounding deep inside us. It turns out that even atheists can praise God without meaning to. All of this makes sense based on the topic that Satan has raised. If he turned out to be right and all people turned out to be just lustful, self-serving and greedy animals, then humanity as a project would be doomed. And God would be disgraced as the Creator of holiness and love. And then the devil would have legitimized his evil empire forever. I understand that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. But we really want real blessings! Stop traveling to the paradise islands already. It's time to land.

 

[Bruce Lee]

. It turns out that even atheists can praise God without meaning

That's a good point.
I have noticed that more and more since waking up from the watchtower.

People that I meet are very kind, hospitable and happy.

 

[LeeB]

Thank you. This is a wonderful article. I also liked these thoughts: However, since the scriptures do not explicitly spell this out for us this is only one possible reason. We may in time learn how much was truly at stake. We must realize that for an issue to take more than 6,000 years to settle, involving the lives of billions of people and perhaps millions of angels, it cannot be that simple. It must be much more complicated than we have outlined. For now we must face the reality that with this present life comes injustice, pain and suffering yet not give in to doubting God when he tells us he loves us.In the meantime, no one that stumbles and loses their faith in God due to tragic circumstances beyond their control goes unnoticed by God. (Matt. 10:29-31; 18:6,7) You will receive an opportunity under much better circumstances in the future with the aid of a sympathetic, kind and understanding high priest to achieve an unending life totally free of suffering. (Rev. 21:3,4)

I believe that God can allow very long suffering so that people can glorify the image of God embedded in us, even when they lose faith. After all, many non-believers continue to show kindness, love, mercy and devotion. They do not obey God with their minds. But they continue to obey him, following the call of the heart - the voice of God, sounding deep inside us. It turns out that even atheists can praise God without meaning to. All of this makes sense based on the topic that Satan has raised. If he turned out to be right and all people turned out to be just lustful, self-serving and greedy animals, then humanity as a project would be doomed. And God would be disgraced as the Creator of holiness and love. And then the devil would have legitimized his evil empire forever. I understand that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. But we really want real blessings! Stop traveling to the paradise islands already. It's time to land.

Romans 8:18 , 2 Corinthians 4:17 , 1 Peter 4:13 , Matthew 5:11 , Isaiah 25:8 , Philippians 1:29 , Acts 14:22 Proverbs 30:7-9 , 1 Chronicles 28:9

 

[Outcast]

John 12:27 The total being, body and spirit, was troubled.
Luke 1:46-47 Mary’s total being , body and spirit magnified God and her human spirit rejoiced, the part of her that is sentient and able to rejoice .
1 Kings 17:21-22 The child’s spirit left the body at death and the union of the soul was broken, oh let him become a soul again, complete, the broken union repaired. Without the spirit the body is dead, the flesh/body profits nothing, it is the spirit that gives life.
Hebrews 12:23 It is the spirit that must be made perfect the fleshly..g body does not enter the kingdom. Cast such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Corinthians 5:5
1 Peter 3:18-19 Jesus was murdered while in the flesh, while a human, a soul. Made alive in the spirit, Romans 8:11
Revelation 6:9 To see a soul is to see a person, you cannot see their spirit.
Revelation 20:4 Souls/people who had been beheaded , now in vision John see these people in the kingdom with Christ
Genesis 35:18 The process of death, her spirit would soon depart and she would be dead no longer a soul.

The account of the creation of Adam is the standard in understanding of body, spirit and soul throughout all scripture. This cannot change as it is foundational. When Greek translators came across these words they did not understand this and made errors. Even in the Strongs concordance the word soul in Strongs G5590 &. G4151 by not understanding the truth of Adams creation the translators butchered the true meaning of the Hebrew word nephesh H5315 . What Adam was and we are has not , cannot and will not change. All human beings are a soul, the combination of body and spirit.

I do appreciate your response, LeeB. I can fully agree that those who translated scriptures into Greek used their type of understanding is choosing words. That is why it is so important to realize that we may not know on this earth what the original writers intended except through context. Like you, the creation account is our first understanding, but then
Now, what if the same confusing occurred in the Hebrew words? Should we not compare texts in the Old Testament pages to see it confusion remained? I was looking it up to see (allowing that those who provide definitions for Hebrew words are still human as well).


1 Ki 17:21–22 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child’s life(soul) come into him again.” And the LORD listened to the voice of Elijah. And the life(soul) of the child came into him again, and he revived

5315 [e] ne·p̄eš- נֶֽפֶשׁ־ soul N‑fsc c. ׳נ departs at death and returns with life: וַיְתִי בְּצֵאת נַפְשָׁהּ כִּי מֵתָה Genesis 35:18 (E) and it came to pass when her soul was going forth (for she died); נָָֽפְחָה נַפְשָׁהּ Jeremiah 15:9 she breathed out her soul, compare 1 Kings 17:21,22; Job 11:20; Job 31:39. Additionally, people who have died and gone to heaven or hell are referred to as “spirits”

Ge 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature

I am totally NOT as expert in Hebrew, but this a difference between the term used in 1 Kings 17 and in Genesis 2.

5315 [e] lə·ne·p̄eš לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ a being Prep‑l | N‑fs The נפשׁ becomes a living being: by God's breathing נשׁמת חיים into the nostrils of its בשׂר; of man Genesis 2:7 (J); by implication of animals also Genesis 2:19 (J); so Psalm 104:29; Psalm 104:30; compare Psalm 66:9; man is נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה, a living, breathing being Genesis 2:7 (J); elsewhere נפשׁ חיּה always of animals Genesis 1:20,24,30; Genesis 9:12,15,16 (all P), Ezekiel 47:9; so נפשׁ החיּה Genesis 1:21; Genesis 9:10 (both P), Leviticus 11:10,46 (H); נפשׁ השׁרצת Leviticus 11:46 (H); נפשׁ כל חי Job 12:10. נפשׁ is frequently used with the verb ׃חיה וחיתה נפשׁ Genesis 12:13; Genesis 19:20 (both J), 1 Kings 20:32 (E), Psalm 119:175; Jeremiah 38:17,20; חֵי נַפְשְׁךָ 1 Samuel 1:26; 1 Samuel 17:55; 1 Samuel 20:3; 1 Samuel 25:26; 2 Samuel 11:11; 2 Samuel 14:9; 2 Kings 2:2,4,6; 2 Kings 4:30 (all J E); compare ׳יְחַיֶּה נ 1 Kings 20:31 (E), Ezekiel 18:27; Psalm 22:30; also Genesis 19:19; Isaiah 55:3; Proverbs 3:22.

And this, brother, is why I still ponder what God would have me understand.

 

[LeeB]

I see the spirit in man, Job 32:8 , by many other names; the inner man, the breath of life, the mind, the heart . I see all humans are spirit in a temporary dwelling made of dust, an earthen vessel. We are all a spirit in a fleshly body. These two ingredients, body and spirit make the whole person. The whole is equal the sum of its parts, dust and breath were combined to make a soul . Our human spirit is what imparts life to the body. Our bodies grow old or in some way are damaged beyond what our spirit is able to sustain then the spirit leaves the body and returns to God. If we are a soul with both parts of dust and spirit functioning then we are alive but without either of the parts the whole cannot live. To have a soul be restored the parts that make it must be present. The dead child’s spirit had left the child thus ending the union of body and spirit, Elijah prayed for the child to be a soul again, send the child’s spirit back to the body. You gave many scriptures that testify to this. The human, the soul, is not immortal . Life and death are total opposites. The only way to become immortal is by God through Christ. Therefore to live forever or die forever are the only two possibilities.