General DIFFICULT UNDERSTANDING

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,245
475
83

DIFFICULT UNDERSTANDING




There is a church that exists today that I call the invisible church. Perhaps it could also be called the unknown church, the ignored church, the unnoticed church but not because it’s members cannot be seen but because they are very low profile, not in the public eye.

Understanding prophecy is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Anyone who does not have the Holy Spirit can be identified by the the gift of discernment as John points out in 1 John 4:1-6 There is mutual understanding and agreement among the elect saints in the Holy Spirit. The knowledge of the truth is only with the church and the rest of the world, 2 Timothy 3:5,7,13 How can Catholics, Protestants, JW’s or any other organization of men understand prophecy ? In scripture there are two groups called the elect; carnal Israel under the law and spiritual Israel under grace. Romans 11:5 Romans 9:27 A remnant is defined as, a small remaining quantity of something, the few chosen, the little flock, the church. Replacement theology is a moot point because the election according to grace has always been those of the faith and blessed. Galatians 3:7,9 Romans 9:8 Carnal Israel can be grafted into the olive tree after Jesus returns.

Scripture confirms that the church will be in the first resurrection. Will Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Melchizedek , Sara, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Jethro, Rahab, Huldah, Debra, Miriam, David, and all the prophets be in the first resurrection ? If so then they are of the church, they are part of the elect saints existing before Christ. Matthew 27:52 , Hebrews 11:40 , Romans 11:16 The church is the elect, the 144000 are the church, the elect. Revelation 14:1-4 the elect, the church, the 144000 are also the first fruits. Revelation 7:3-4 the elect, alive or dead, are all sealed by Yahweh. The church is spiritual Israel, the Israel of Yahweh, the twelve tribes scattered abroad. James 1:1 Carnal Israel is not part of spiritual Israel as law is not part of grace. Romans 9:6 The church did not begin on the day of Pentecost. The new covenant did not begin on Pentecost else all the people before Christ would be excluded. The true church, the elect, spiritual Israel, the 144000 are an extremely small number of people, a remnant, called and chosen by Yahweh since the time of Able and into this day. All these people will total in number to 144000. This fact is what disturbs many people because they do not believe it. When Yahweh calls people out of Babylon HE is calling people out of whatever religion they may be in, to separate themselves and no longer touch these unclean things and HE will receive us. 2 Corinthians 6:17 , Isaiah 52:11 , Revelation 18:4 , Jeremiah 51:6 , Revelation 18:4 perhaps you recognize the parallels in these scriptures, they are not accidental or coincidence. The prophets of old were actually speaking to the church but using events contemporary in their day as a shadow of their fulfillment in our day. 1 Peter 1:12 , Ephesians 3:10 , 1 Corinthians 2:7 There is an innumerable multitude that no man can number but the elect are numbered . When an actual number is used in scripture it is real not figurative. I know that what I have written here is a hard thing and that many will not accept it. I challenge you to prove this out right or wrong. I did this years ago and at that time it was difficult for me accept. Yahweh is the teacher by HIS spirit through Christ, if you do study this remember that. Yahweh can straighten it out, make it plain. Isaiah 40:4KJV

Jesus was called Yahwehs elect. Isaiah 42:1 The prophecy of the promised seed, Christ, and the church, the elect, who have part in the inheritance of Jesus, called Yahwehs servants. Isaiah 65:9 The new covenant , as Paul explains was going to focus on the calling of the gentiles. Colossians 1:27,28 the mystery of the calling of the gentiles. Only a few Israelites responded to the gospel message, this is why their branches were broken off the olive tree to begin with and replaced by gentiles. The first shall be last and the last first. The election of grace is solely based on Yahwehs own will and not on the actions of men. This is why no man can teach you and your leader is Christ. All of the elect learn through Jesus by divine revelation, they are taught by Yahweh. John 6:45

The following is a list of New Testament scriptures mentioning Yahwehs elect saints; Matthew 24:22,24,31 Mark 13:20,22,27 Luke 18:7 Romans 8:33 Romans 9:11 Romans 11:5,7,28 Colossians 3:12 1 Thessalonians 1:4 2 Timothy 2:10 Titus 1:1 1 Peter 1:2 1 Peter 2:6 1 Peter 5:13 2 Peter 1:10 2 John 1:1,13 These scriptures confirm that the church, the 144000, the firstfruits, the called and chosen are the sons of Yahweh. When a number is given in scripture it is literal, what is the sense of giving a number if it is only symbolic, 1 GOD 1 Messiah 1 faith 1 hope 10 commandments 2 great commandments 1000 years 70 years 12 disciples 7 days in a week 7 plagues 40 days and 40 nights 3 days and 3 nights 12 tribes of Israel Pentecost count to 50 the seventh trumpet ..... there are many more. Numbers used in an illustration like; 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish are for a different reason.

I do not insist that anyone must agree but I would hope that you would prove this out for yourselves, prove all things.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Outcast

Outcast

Active member
Dec 5, 2023
258
84
28
Holt
Well, sir, I like your post. Thank you.

As for your challenge "When an actual number is used in scripture it is real not figurative. I know that what I have written here is a hard thing and that many will not accept it. I challenge you to prove this out right or wrong. I did this years ago and at that time it was difficult for me accept. ", I think that there is evidence that the Hebrew mind regarding numbers should not be ignored. We cannot think like they did, so we impose our view of numbers on scripture because it makes sense to our modern mind.

Evidence is scripture does exist that we should understand some numbers as they may be seen by the ancients.

Numbers in prophecy denote a symbolic meaning that trumps any empirical value. Numbers have a value in Scripture that denotes something other than empirical value.

3 = the number of God (note that for engineering, the number 3 is a basis for stability in design)

4 = symbolizes the Earth

7 = (3 + 4) and 12 (3 x 4) signified God working in the world.

10 = the number of completion.


Even multiples of these numbers were important to ancient Jews. With spiritual discernment, there is more to the events of an era than meets the eye.

Jeremiah <written 586 to 570 BC> 29:10 (ESV) For thus says the LORD: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place.

Daniel <written 536 to 530 BC> 9:1-2 (ESV) In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

“Thus says the Lord: When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will visit you, and I will fulfill to you my promise and bring you back to this place”
(Jer. 29:10).

We know that the actual time that Israel stayed in Babylon was either 67 or 71.

For some, if the numbers are not exact; they believe the Bible is full of errors. In our western eyes, a number is simply a number. To the ancient Jewish eyes, that was not the case. The question for them was “what is the symbolic meaning.”

The number 1000 is immensely important. It is 10 x 10 x 10 – a perfect number which indicates something akin to complete-times-complete-times-complete. When the bible says that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, we can be sure that God owns everything for eternity. His wealth is COMPLETE.

If we read that something will last for 1000 years, we should not perform mathematic processes. We need to realize that something will last until God purpose is complete.

Consider the chances of other scripture statements that are multiples of the aforementioned numbers:

In the gospel books, when the genealogy of the lineage up to Jesus is spelled out, it is organized around the number 14.

Matthew 1:17 (ESV) So all the generations from Abraham to David were fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to the Christ fourteen generations.

There are 14 generations from Abraham to David, 14 from David to the Babylonian captivity, and 14 from the Babylonian captivity to Jesus. Also, some scholars claim that 14 is the number of King David, and that organization further highlights that Jesus was “a son of David.” This significance is easily lost on our western eyes.

This splits the genealogy into “from promise given to promise fulfilled,” “from promise fulfilled to promise lost,” and finally “from promise lost to promise fulfilled eternally.”

In addition, some scholars note that the number fourteen was the number of King David, which would remind a reader again and again that Jesus was the son of David.

In the Gospel of Luke, which traces the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph rather than Mary, the number is 77. That line traces between God and Jesus. As westerners, we can choose to see the significance in that, but the lineage that includes Joseph does not include King David.

To Luke, however, the lineage is significant. Two 7’s can be an indication of God working in the world.

Your reference to 144,000 may be accurate, but also may be a statement of the completion of Yahweh's work in this world.

7 = (3 + 4) and 12 (3 x 4) signified God working in the world.

10 = the number of completion.


I allow some latitude in understanding of things like this. I don't have firm conviction on it.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,245
475
83
There is a rather large group of Jewish rabbis that subscribe to a belief and practice of numerology or gematria and this has spilled over into false Christianity they call the Bible code. The Greeks and Romans had their versions of this as well. The teaching of Christ and the Apostles that the philosophy of men is a useless endeavor. Colossians 2:8,20 Galatians 4:3 Ephesians 5:6 Jeremiah 29:8 Numerology, gematria or Bible codes are Satanic, others of the world practiced these things but the church is to be the pillar and ground of truth. An example of this type of thing is in a post titled “The Chukas of 666” . I will bring it up so you can take a look. Truth covers both words and numbers, all forms of communication with Christ and Yahweh must be in spirit and in truth. This is only part of the reason why I stated that numbers in scripture are real. If there are errors in the scriptures they came from men not from Yahweh.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,245
475
83
An example of numbers. Jesus being three days and three nights in the tomb. Many say this time frame is not literal but means parts of days or some other explanation in order to justify their belief in keeping Sunday as the resurrection of Jesus. Is it literal or not ?
 

Outcast

Active member
Dec 5, 2023
258
84
28
Holt
An example of numbers. Jesus being three days and three nights in the tomb. Many say this time frame is not literal but means parts of days or some other explanation in order to justify their belief in keeping Sunday as the resurrection of Jesus. Is it literal or not ?
We do tend to put our minds and methods into understanding scripture. A phrase like "on the third day" is taken to mean 72 hours later. Then again, we think our day starts at midnight, but for the people of Israel, not so much. Some non-specifics happen even if we desire to have them be specific.
 

Outcast

Active member
Dec 5, 2023
258
84
28
Holt
There is a rather large group of Jewish rabbis that subscribe to a belief and practice of numerology or gematria and this has spilled over into false Christianity they call the Bible code. The Greeks and Romans had their versions of this as well. The teaching of Christ and the Apostles that the philosophy of men is a useless endeavor. Colossians 2:8,20 Galatians 4:3 Ephesians 5:6 Jeremiah 29:8 Numerology, gematria or Bible codes are Satanic, others of the world practiced these things but the church is to be the pillar and ground of truth. An example of this type of thing is in a post titled “The Chukas of 666” . I will bring it up so you can take a look. Truth covers both words and numbers, all forms of communication with Christ and Yahweh must be in spirit and in truth. This is only part of the reason why I stated that numbers in scripture are real. If there are errors in the scriptures they came from men not from Yahweh.
So, a quick question - what do we do with the phrase about God owning the cattle on a thousand hills?

Ps 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,245
475
83
Since Yahweh created the hills , the cattle and the Earth HE owns everything even us. Then Yahweh gives it all to Christ, then Christ shares it with us.
 
Last edited:

Outcast

Active member
Dec 5, 2023
258
84
28
Holt
Since Yahweh created the hills , the cattle and the Earth HE owns everything even us. Then Yahweh gives it all to Christ, then Christ shares it with us.
I guess I worded my question incorrectly. It seems to me that your position is that the 1000 hills refers to one more than 999 of them. I fail to see that we are intended to take the 1000 as the actual number of hills that Yahweh can claim. I think there is room to consider that certain numbers which are multiples of the numbers I listed can by taken other than literally. I think there is room for thought as to the significance of the numbers given in prophecy. That is all I am suggesting.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,245
475
83
When it comes to doctrine and prophecy numbers are literal. The 1000 hills is only showing a large number, David knew there was more than a 1000 hills on Earth. The number is used by David to demonstrate the glory of Yahweh. This is the same in the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25. The numbers are not the focus but rather the wise and the unwise and the resulting condition of each. If scriptures says plainly that there are 144000 elect then this is literal, Ten Commandments are literal, 12 Apostles are literal, one GOD is literal.
 

Outcast

Active member
Dec 5, 2023
258
84
28
Holt
When it comes to doctrine and prophecy numbers are literal. The 1000 hills is only showing a large number, David knew there was more than a 1000 hills on Earth. The number is used by David to demonstrate the glory of Yahweh. This is the same in the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25. The numbers are not the focus but rather the wise and the unwise and the resulting condition of each. If scriptures says plainly that there are 144000 elect then this is literal, Ten Commandments are literal, 12 Apostles are literal, one GOD is literal.
Well, agreeing with 3 out of 4 ain't so bad.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,245
475
83
Well, agreeing with 3 out of 4 ain't so bad.
When we see how rare it is to be a Christian and understand how Satan very early on infiltrated the church and how the synagogues of Satan have grown, now dominate what is thought to be Christianity, that most of the elect are dead leaving a remnant who will be alive and remaining at the second advent, the number 144000 seems very reasonable. Consider, 2.4 billion people profess being Christians in more than 45000 denominations having different doctrines and divided. This does not align with how the church is described in scripture. There is to be only one church not 45000. This one church does exist today but is hidden from view.
 

Outcast

Active member
Dec 5, 2023
258
84
28
Holt
When we see how rare it is to be a Christian and understand how Satan very early on infiltrated the church and how the synagogues of Satan have grown, now dominate what is thought to be Christianity, that most of the elect are dead leaving a remnant who will be alive and remaining at the second advent, the number 144000 seems very reasonable. Consider, 2.4 billion people profess being Christians in more than 45000 denominations having different doctrines and divided. This does not align with how the church is described in scripture. There is to be only one church not 45000. This one church does exist today but is hidden from view.
I can go along with all this. I would word differently, however, that the one church is not hidden; it is shunned and disregarded. Those other churches, I think, are aware that they are ineffective is most cases. I think some even are aware that they ignore scripture intentionally as it is too difficult to explain away the truth while adhering to the mandated doctrines. Very little integrity from those who claim to be serving God's purpose. Now, church is a source of comfortable emotions and not pathway guides.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LeeB

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,245
475
83
Isaiah 5:20,21 There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. The most deluded people are those who choose to ignore what they already know. Isaiah 3:9 Matthew 7:21KJV Luke 6:46 Malachi 1:6
On rare occasions these false shepherds cross paths with one of Yahwehs elect. One of them said to a man I know, “I have knocked on doors for over 50 years but I have never met anyone like you.” The true church is not organized like churches in the world as they are scattered to the four winds. They do not know other small groups or where they are, they are not to preach the gospel in an attempt to fulfill the great commission. They lead peaceful and quiet keeping themselves unspotted from the world. They are taught by divine revelation from Yahweh through Jesus Christ the mediator . They worship Yahweh in spirit and in truth using no physical thing, keeping no days. They are not in ignorance concerning the second advent so that it should surprise them but they watch as Jesus said they should. They meet in small groups of two or three whenever they come together and at that time partake of the bread and the wine. If it is Yahwehs will they will be the remnant of the elect, the 144000, that are alive and remain when Christ returns. They love Yahweh and their neighbors. They are not perfect still requiring grace for forgiveness of sin but hope for perfection when the change comes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Outcast