Rebuttal Did Jesus Think He was God?

[stignatius]

Here lies my biggest reservation with unitarianism.... How does it defend against mormon-style theosis, the doctrine that we will eventually become gods? If he is merely a perfect human who happens to have been given special agency by the Father's plan, then you will one day have the same nature and qualifications for his agency as he has. What therefore, protects us against polytheism under a unitarian Christology?

Outside of descriptions of his special role and status in God's plan you should be able to, as a unitarian, eventually ascribe to yourself all of the statements about Jesus' nature to yourself. Would you be comfortable, once you are glorified, saying that in you the fullness of deity dwells bodily? (Col 2:9) That you are the alpha and the omega? (Rev 22:13) Would you feel qualified to judge the world? (Acts 17:31) In you dwells all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge? (Col 2:3) That he who has seen you has the Father also? (John 14:9) That if imperfect men were to see you in your glorified state that they could come to you for eternal life? (John 10:27, 28) That you could be the bread of life, if so called upon? (John 6:35)

I understand that under a unitarian model, Christ has a special role to play in God's purpose and has special agency, a special status. However, what would be his qualifications to fulfill that role that you will never have in your glorified state? If so, what would they be specifically? If not, then we are back to theosis.

 

[Lori Jane]

Some say that since Jesus is “worshipped” he must be God. This argument is entirely fallacious. The word “worship” in the Old Testament and New Testament is used in different senses. (1) To denote religious service to the One God. (2) To denote homage paid to superior personages including, supremely, the Messiah. In I Chronicles 29:20 David the King is “worshipped” along with God (see KJV). In Revelation 3:9 the Christians are going to be “worshipped” (see again the KJV). The same word is used here as is used also for the worship of the One God, the Father. Jesus is worshipped in the Bible as the Messiah, not as the One God. The identity of God and Jesus are critically important issues for all students of Christianity. Effective worship must be based on Truth (John 4:24). Nothing is more essential than a biblical understanding of the One God and His relationship to His Son, the Messiah Jesus.[source]

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“Worshipping” Jesus

“If anyone examines the evangelical narratives carefully he would hardly affirm that the persons who worshipped Christ while on earth acknowledged him to be God. They believed, indeed, that he was a distinguished prophet, sent by the Almighty, by whose assistance he cured the blind, the deaf and the lame, but they did not recognize him as the true Son of God [i.e. God]. This is proved by the opinion of Nicodemus (John 3:2), the confession of Peter and the other disciples (Matt. 16:13, 14) and the exclamation of the people of Nain (Luke 7:16). In the same way the magi, the leper, the centurion and others...felt persuaded that the power of the Most High was exhibited in him.

“I do not in proof of Jesus being the object of divine worship urge the instances of those who fell down at Christ’s feet and worshipped him while he was on earth. For it may well be answered that a prophet was worshipped with the civil respect of falling down before him among the Jews as appears in the history of Elijah and Elisha. Nor does it appear that those who worshipped Christ had any apprehension of his being God. They only considered him as the Messiah or some eminent prophet”

(Bishop Burnet, Church of England).

“Doing reverence by prostration is not only an act of worship paid to God, but often to kings and great men in the OT according to the custom of Eastern countries (see II Sam. 9:6; 14:33). It was likewise an expression of reverence paid to prophets on account of the sanctity of their office and not refused by them (I Kings 18:7). Of this kind probably was the worship paid to Christ by the leper (Matt. 8:2)”

(William Lowth).

“‘To do him homage.’ Proskuneo auto. The homage of prostration which is signified by this Greek word in sacred authors as well as in profane was throughout all Asia commonly paid to kings and other superiors by Jews and pagans. It was paid by Moses to his father-in-law (Exod. 18:7), called in the English translation ‘obeisance.’ The instances of this application are so numerous both in the OT and in the NT as to render more quotations unnecessary. When God is the object the word denotes adoration in the highest sense. In old English the term ‘worship’ was used either of God or man. It is not commonly so used now”

(Dr. George Campbell).

“Proskunein [worship] in the NT particularly denotes ‘with head and body bent to show reverence and offer civil worship to anyone, to salute anyone so as to prostrate the body to the ground and touch it even with the chin.’ This is a mode of salutation almost universally adopted by Eastern nations. Proskunein also signifies ‘to bend the knee in reverence and honor or in supplication.’ This corresponds to the Hebrew word hishtachavah, ‘he bent,’ or ‘he prostrated himself at the feet of anyone for the sake of honor and reverence.’ We find this in the Septuagint [Greek version of the OT] in Gen. 18:2; 23:7, 12; 19:1; Esther 3:2, etc. See also Matt. 2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; and compare Mark 5:22; and Luke 5:12; Matt. 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9, 17; Mark 5:6; 15:19; John 9:38; Acts 10:25”

(J.F.D. Schleusner, NT Lexicon, under proskunein). [source]

 

[stignatius]

Some say that since Jesus is “worshipped” he must be God. This argument is entirely fallacious. The word “worship” in the Old Testament and New Testament is used in different senses. (1) To denote religious service to the One God. (2) To denote homage paid to superior personages including, supremely, the Messiah. In I Chronicles 29:20 David the King is “worshipped” along with God (see KJV). In Revelation 3:9 the Christians are going to be “worshipped” (see again the KJV). The same word is used here as is used also for the worship of the One God, the Father. Jesus is worshipped in the Bible as the Messiah, not as the One God. The identity of God and Jesus are critically important issues for all students of Christianity. Effective worship must be based on Truth (John 4:24). Nothing is more essential than a biblical understanding of the One God and His relationship to His Son, the Messiah Jesus.[source]

---

“Worshipping” Jesus

“If anyone examines the evangelical narratives carefully he would hardly affirm that the persons who worshipped Christ while on earth acknowledged him to be God. They believed, indeed, that he was a distinguished prophet, sent by the Almighty, by whose assistance he cured the blind, the deaf and the lame, but they did not recognize him as the true Son of God [i.e. God]. This is proved by the opinion of Nicodemus (John 3:2), the confession of Peter and the other disciples (Matt. 16:13, 14) and the exclamation of the people of Nain (Luke 7:16). In the same way the magi, the leper, the centurion and others...felt persuaded that the power of the Most High was exhibited in him.


(Bishop Burnet, Church of England).


(William Lowth).


(Dr. George Campbell).


(J.F.D. Schleusner, NT Lexicon, under proskunein). [source]

Why do Peter and angels refuse proskuneo? (Rev 22:8, 9, Acts 10:26)

 

[mountee]

Some say that since Jesus is “worshipped” he must be God. This argument is entirely fallacious. The word “worship” in the Old Testament and New Testament is used in different senses. (1) To denote religious service to the One God. (2) To denote homage paid to superior personages including, supremely, the Messiah. In I Chronicles 29:20 David the King is “worshipped” along with God (see KJV). In Revelation 3:9 the Christians are going to be “worshipped” (see again the KJV). The same word is used here as is used also for the worship of the One God, the Father. Jesus is worshipped in the Bible as the Messiah, not as the One God. The identity of God and Jesus are critically important issues for all students of Christianity. Effective worship must be based on Truth (John 4:24). Nothing is more essential than a biblical understanding of the One God and His relationship to His Son, the Messiah Jesus.[source]

---

“Worshipping” Jesus

“If anyone examines the evangelical narratives carefully he would hardly affirm that the persons who worshipped Christ while on earth acknowledged him to be God. They believed, indeed, that he was a distinguished prophet, sent by the Almighty, by whose assistance he cured the blind, the deaf and the lame, but they did not recognize him as the true Son of God [i.e. God]. This is proved by the opinion of Nicodemus (John 3:2), the confession of Peter and the other disciples (Matt. 16:13, 14) and the exclamation of the people of Nain (Luke 7:16). In the same way the magi, the leper, the centurion and others...felt persuaded that the power of the Most High was exhibited in him.


(Bishop Burnet, Church of England).


(William Lowth).


(Dr. George Campbell).


(J.F.D. Schleusner, NT Lexicon, under proskunein). [source]

Hi,

I find this long extract confusing. So maybe let me ask in what way do Unitarians worship Jesus and in what ways do they not?

Thanks

 

[Lori Jane]

Hi, that's an interesting perspective, does that mean Unitarians believe they do not practice polytheism because they worship one God more than the other God, i.e. worship the Father more than they worship Jesus.

I can speak for myself as a Biblical Unitarian or my preferable title Christian Monotarian is that I recognize God the Almighty as Yehovah - the Father. (or Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH - whatever your preference).

And Jesus as his uniquely - one of a kind - begotten Son of God. Fulfilling the role of Christ/Messiah (my savior), enthroned as my King and also my High Priest.

So to me, there is one True God - meaning Supreme God and he has this incredible specially begotten human Son. I worship his son as God tells me to do. Worship in that he has my full respect and attention and reverence. I strive to be like him and to teach my kids to be like him. He is our model.

I don't view him like God the Almighty but he is most definitely god-like, heavenly - similar to the angelic host who are also referred to as "gods". But they were never confused with THE GOD ALMIGHTY.

We can get confused over titles and putting our beliefs in a bucket - but what I typed above is what I believe. I would not classify myself as a polytheist. When I think of polytheist I think of Hinduism - gods of equal status and capability. I don't view Yehovah or Jesus that way. I view them simply as Father and Son.

Believers are to become like Christ - we can't do that if he is 1/3 of a composite God. We can if he is the specially begotten human Son of God. We can emulate that and look forward to being a "new creation" as he is. IMHO.

 

[Lori Jane]

trinitarians would never practice polytheism

Using the family analogy. If there is a family of 3 and you call them one family made up of three individuals. If you worship the family aren't you worshipping the individual persons as well? Isn't that polytheism? It seems to just word play to me. 3 in 1 is still poly (many) to me.

So best to no use titles like polytheist and just focus on what we actually believe.

My summary is Trinitarians like you believe. The Father is - not the Son - is not the Holy Spirit - but all three are part of a composite Godhead that you also consider to be YHWH.

Christian Monotaraians like me believe YHWH is God the Father and Jesus is his uniquely begotten Son - the Messiah/Christ fulfillment and now reigning at YHWHs right hand as King. And the holy spirit is God Almighty's personal presence and power.

 

[mountee]

I can speak for myself as a Biblical Unitarian or my preferable title Christian Monotarian is that I recognize God the Almighty as Yehovah - the Father. (or Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH - whatever your preference).

And Jesus as his uniquely - one of a kind - begotten Son of God. Fulfilling the role of Christ/Messiah (my savior), enthroned as my King and also my High Priest.

So to me, there is one True God - meaning Supreme God and he has this incredible specially begotten human Son. I worship his son as God tells me to do. Worship in that he has my full respect and attention and reverence. I strive to be like him and to teach my kids to be like him. He is our model.

I don't view him like God the Almighty but he is most definitely god-like, heavenly - similar to the angelic host who are also referred to as "gods". But they were never confused with THE GOD ALMIGHTY.

We can get confused over titles and putting our beliefs in a bucket - but what I typed above is what I believe. I would not classify myself as a polytheist. When I think of polytheist I think of Hinduism - gods of equal status and capability. I don't view Yehovah or Jesus that way. I view them simply as Father and Son.

Believers are to become like Christ - we can't do that if he is 1/3 of a composite God. We can if he is the specially begotten human Son of God. We can emulate that and look forward to being a "new creation" as he is. IMHO.

Thanks, does that mean you worship Jesus?

 

[mountee]

Using the family analogy. If there is a family of 3 and you call them one family made up of three individuals. If you worship the family aren't you worshipping the individual persons as well? Isn't that polytheism? It seems to just word play to me. 3 in 1 is still poly (many) to me.

So best to no use titles like polytheist and just focus on what we actually believe.

My summary is Trinitarians like you believe. The Father is - not the Son - is not the Holy Spirit - but all three are part of a composite Godhead that you also consider to be YHWH.

Christian Monotaraians like me believe YHWH is God the Father and Jesus is his uniquely begotten Son - the Messiah/Christ fulfillment and now reigning at YHWHs right hand as King. And the holy spirit is God Almighty's personal presence and power.

Yes, that is accurate on what trinitarians believe, therefore it's not polytheism as that's defined as the worship of many gods and not persons.

As soon as it's worship of multiple Gods then that would be unimaginable for trinitarian Christians. We see Monotheism and not polytheism as mandatory for our type of Christianity. We feel it's a key aspect of Judeo-Christian Bible understanding, completely non-negotiable. I think that's the crux of the difference,

 

[stignatius]

I can speak for myself as a Biblical Unitarian or my preferable title Christian Monotarian is that I recognize God the Almighty as Yehovah - the Father. (or Jehovah, Yahweh, YHWH - whatever your preference).

And Jesus as his uniquely - one of a kind - begotten Son of God. Fulfilling the role of Christ/Messiah (my savior), enthroned as my King and also my High Priest.

So to me, there is one True God - meaning Supreme God and he has this incredible specially begotten human Son. I worship his son as God tells me to do. Worship in that he has my full respect and attention and reverence. I strive to be like him and to teach my kids to be like him. He is our model.

I don't view him like God the Almighty but he is most definitely god-like, heavenly - similar to the angelic host who are also referred to as "gods". But they were never confused with THE GOD ALMIGHTY.

We can get confused over titles and putting our beliefs in a bucket - but what I typed above is what I believe. I would not classify myself as a polytheist. When I think of polytheist I think of Hinduism - gods of equal status and capability. I don't view Yehovah or Jesus that way. I view them simply as Father and Son.

Believers are to become like Christ - we can't do that if he is 1/3 of a composite God. We can if he is the specially begotten human Son of God. We can emulate that and look forward to being a "new creation" as he is. IMHO.

It is true that there are other beings referred to in the OT as "gods". However, the OT defends monotheism primarily by referring to God's unique attributes. In other words, there are other spiritual beings. But, none of them have the same attributes as Yahweh. (Isaiah 43:10) The other gods aren't worthy of worship because none of them have the attributes of Yahweh.

 

[Lori Jane]

therefore it's not polytheism as that's defined as the worship of many gods and not persons

But don't you believe the Father = God and the Son = God and the Holy Spirit = God?

I still say it's a bit of a play on words. Sure sounds like three gods to me. I get that you SAY it is 3 in 1 - but still...

 

[Lori Jane]

The other gods aren't worthy of worship because none of them have the attributes of Yahweh.

And yes Jesus has Yahweh's attributes but it doesn't make Jesus = Yahweh. I have my mother's attributes but I am still me and she is still herself. Jesus is worthy of the worship as defined above and Yahweh told us to worship him.

 

[stignatius]

But don't you believe the Father = God and the Son = God and the Holy Spirit = God?

I still say it's a bit of a play on words. Sure sounds like three gods to me. I get that you SAY it is 3 in 1 - but still...

There is a belief known as tri-theism or semi-arianism, defended by Michael Servetus and others, that says that Jesus and the Spirit are seperate gods. But, makes them separate deities in a tri-theistic model is that they all have different attributes. Trinitarianism affirms that all three persons of God share the same attributes and nature, all are omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent and share total goodness and holiness and share in the same nature, thus making them the one true God.

 

[stignatius]

And yes Jesus has Yahweh's attributes but it doesn't make Jesus = Yahweh. I have my mother's attributes but I am still me and she is still herself. Jesus is worthy of the worship as defined above and Yahweh told us to worship him.

When I say attributes, I don't mean things such as personality or moral character. I refer to what we would call ontology, or a description of being. In the OT, only Yahweh rides the clouds, only Yahweh created the world and is the source of life, only Yahweh rules over all other spiritual beings, only Yahweh doesn't need anything to sustain his existence, only Yahweh has lived for all eternity, etc...

 

[stignatius]

And yes Jesus has Yahweh's attributes but it doesn't make Jesus = Yahweh. I have my mother's attributes but I am still me and she is still herself. Jesus is worthy of the worship as defined above and Yahweh told us to worship him.

Also, this would be more of an argument against modalism and not orthodox Trinitarianism. Father and Son are separate persons, like you and your mom. But, Father and Son also share the same nature, just like you and your mom.

 

[mountee]

And yes Jesus has Yahweh's attributes but it doesn't make Jesus = Yahweh. I have my mother's attributes but I am still me and she is still herself. Jesus is worthy of the worship as defined above and Yahweh told us to worship him.

Great banter, thanks for the responses, so as a summary

I'd see it the the other way around. I believe Jesus is God, not because he has the same attributes as the Father but because

1. The bible tells me so Isa. 9:6 and many other places
2. He has all the attributes of a god
3. He is worshipped as God by the angels and men
4. We are to give him equal worship with the father
5. The bible says there's only one true God for worship

and then I believe the trinity because I believe the father and son are separate persons and polytheism is wrong and unbiblical.

Hope the summary clarifies the differences

 

[mountee]

Also, this would be more of an argument against modalism and not orthodox Trinitarianism. Father and Son are separate persons, like you and your mom. But, Father and Son also share the same nature, just like you and your mom.

Yea, thanks for highlighting a classic mistake. Most exJWs confuse modalism for the trinity. You clearly know your stuff

 

[stignatius]

Great banter, thanks for the responses, so as a summary

I'd see it the the other way around. I believe Jesus is God, not because he has the same attributes as the Father but because

1. The bible tells me so Isa. 9:6 and many other places
2. He has all the attributes of a god
3. He is worshipped as God by the angels and men
4. We are to give him equal worship with the father
5. The bible says there's only one true God for worship

and then I believe the trinity because I believe the father and son are separate persons and polytheism is wrong and unbiblical.

Hope the summary clarifies the differences

Yeah. I would agree with that summary. Thank you for putting that more clearly.

 

[benadam1974]

Interesting perspective, but if we are only meant to worship one God and not two, how do you then also Worship Jesus as a separate God?

Verses on only worshiping God Ex 20:1-3, Matt 4:10, Luke 4:8, Isa 43:10,

Verses on worshipping Jesus John 5:23; Heb 1:6; Matt 8:2, 14:33, 28:9,17; John 9:38; Luke 24:52; Rev 5:12-14

I don't recall implying, let alone saying that we "Worship Jesus as a separate God." What gave you that impression.

Again, all those verses you listed are in the context of Jesus as the Messiah, Son of God.
Nowhere is anyone worshiping or told to worship the Son as the one and only true God.

By the way, how is worship of others as the one and only true God not count as polytheism?

 

[mountee]

I don't recall implying, let alone saying that we "Worship Jesus as a separate God." What gave you that impression.

Again, all those verses you listed are in the context of Jesus as the Messiah, Son of God.
Nowhere is anyone worshiping or told to worship the Son as the one and only true God.

By the way, how is worship of others as the one and only true God not count as polytheism?

Hi lots of questions there, do you worship the father and do you worship the son as a separate God or as one God?

Separate God's = polytheism

same God = trinity (with 3 wonderful persons that saved my life)

That's the friendly discussion underway I think