Rebuttal Did Jesus Think He was God?

[Lori Jane]

This video was shared on a whatsapp group and I wanted to open it for a gentle debate.



I am copying and pasting the transcript so we can reply inline (just highlight the portion you want to reply to and a pop up "reply" button will show. Click it and type your reply below. This will allow us to have an organized threaded discussion.

Transcript:
00:01 [Music]
00:17 did jesus think he was god?
00:20 as i read through the pages of the new
00:21 testament as a new investigator of the
00:23 gospels
00:24 35 years old didn't really understand
00:26 what christianity claimed but i did
00:28 recognize that if this guy
00:30 jesus of nazareth was going to be
00:32 different than any other ancient sage
00:35 than any claims that maybe buddha would
00:37 make or any claims that baha'u'llah or
00:39 muhammad or whoever it might be
00:41 confucius any of these claims the
00:44 difference would be
00:45 did jesus really think in his mind
00:49 that he was something more than a
00:50 prophet that he was something more than
00:53 than a man
00:54 that he was in fact god did he he did he
00:57 give away any
00:58 indication that he actually believed
01:00 this because i'll tell you what
01:01 if we're saying he's just a good teacher
01:03 or he's just a a wise sage
01:06 how wise or good could you be if you're
01:08 somebody who teaches others or
01:09 thinks you are god you're either crazy
01:13 or you're god right but you can't be
01:14 both you can't be
01:16 see your god when you're not and be
01:18 considered wise or good
01:21 so i wanted to kind of collect the
01:23 evidence that might demonstrate what
01:24 jesus
01:25 actually thought about himself i think
01:27 there are several lines of evidence here
01:29 the first or just his own words right
01:30 clearly in gospel of john he says things
01:33uh
01:33 calling himself the great i am that
01:35 would cause the hearers
01:37 who were listening to recognize right
01:39 away that's a claim to deity and they
01:41 wanted to stone him for blasphemy
01:43 though so clearly based on their
01:44 reaction they got it they knew what he
01:46 was claiming to be but
01:47 he would even start his sentences in a
01:49 way that no prophet would ever start
01:51 their sentences
01:52 prophets would say hey very they would
01:54 say you know the lord almighty
01:56 says or god almighty or the lord or your
01:59 god
02:00 says and they would speak whatever it is
02:02 they said that the
02:03 god had spoken to them jesus never does
02:06 it never says the lord your god says no
02:08 he says verily verily
02:09 i say to you jesus always spoke
02:12 as though he was god not that he was
02:14 representing god he spoke as though he
02:16 was god in first person
02:18 i say this to you think about go back
02:21 and read your new testament you will not
02:22 find him ever speaking like a prophet
02:24 he speaks as though he thinks he's god
02:27 but even more important is another line
02:29 of evidence now
02:30 you know that in that culture there's
02:33 one god
02:33 only one god to be worshipped and you'll
02:35 see that when people
02:36 mistake like paul or any of the apostles
02:39 in the book of acts
02:40 or peter if they mistake you for god the
02:42 apostles stopped them right away no
02:44 no no do not worship me like a god i am
02:46 not to be there is only but one god
02:48 i am not god why is it that jesus
02:51 accepts the worship
02:53 repeatedly of the people who follow him
02:56 he was in the same culture nobody else
02:58 would do that we have good biblical
03:00 evidence that shows us that his
03:01 disciples would never do that
03:03 but jesus always accepts freely
03:06 the worship of others either if they're
03:09 coming to be healed by him or even his
03:11 own disciples
03:12 look if that's blasphemy unless you
03:14 think you are the god that deserves
03:16 worthy of worship again two lines of
03:19 evidence one
03:20 he spoke as though he was god two he
03:23 accepted the worship of god
03:25 but there's one more even better line of
03:27 evidence it seems to me because he did
03:29 the one
03:29 thing that only god can do he rose
03:32 from the dead he not only said he was
03:35 god
03:36 and accepted the worship as though he
03:37 was god he did things to
03:39 demonstrate he was god when john the
03:42 baptist had doubts and he was in custody
03:44 he sent over his own disciples to jesus
03:47 and they said jesus
03:48 john's in custody he wants to know are
03:50 you the one
03:51 what did jesus do he performed miracles
03:56 for those disciples again every time
03:59 that he wanted to authenticate his
04:01 message
04:03 he said if you don't believe what i say
04:06 to you at least believe on the evidence
04:08 of these miracles you see that the
04:09 gospel of john repeatedly
04:11 jesus does things that only god could do
04:15 he even for example forgave sins when
04:18 people came that if that
04:20 that alone irritated the jewish
04:23 believers in the jewish leadership that
04:25 saw him because he think he's god he can
04:27 forgive sins well
04:28 yeah apparently he thinks he's god
04:29 because he's saying he can forgive sins
04:31 he's acting as though he's god
04:32 he's rising from the grave he speaks as
04:34 though he's god and not a prophet
04:36 and he accepts your worship and that's
04:38 why he ought to accept
04:40 our worship because he's different than
04:42 buddha he's different than the other
04:44 ancient sages
04:46 he's either crazy because he thought he
04:48 was god or
04:49 he's god and we ought to give him our
04:54 worship
05:03 you

 

[GraceMade]

Thank you for that extensive transcript. I'm going to ruminate before I impulsively reply.

 

[benadam1974]

02:12
as though he was god not that he was

His premise that “Jesus always spoke as if he was God….in the first person. You will never find him speaking like a prophet" is not factual.

First, the people were right to call him "the prophet Jesus" (Mat 21.11; cp. John 6.14; Luke 24.19). But, of course, this does not mean that he was just like any other prophet but the one prophesied by Moses in Deut 18:18a
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers.
NOTE: this figure is "raised up...from among" the Israelites, i.e., a human person and not some 2nd Person of a Trinity!

Now it's true that the Son did not speak as prophets before him with what I call "filters" ("Thus says the LORD God...") but Moses explained why in Deut 18:18b
I will put My words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.

Second, consider the fact that the Son is always presented as subordinate to God, the Father.
This is a biblical fact that has been admitted by most noted Evangelical NT scholars.

Robinson, Dunn on John:
“The subordination of the Son to the Father, the one true and only God, is never in doubt in John.”​

The following examples from the favorite trinitarian Gospel of John bear this out.
•The Son is “sent”: 3.17; 4:34; 5:23; 6:38; 7:28; 8:29; 12:44; 14:24;
•The Father “gives/grants”: 3.34; 5.19-36; 12.49; 17.4, 8;
•Jesus consistently calls God “Father”: 5.18, 44; 8.40-42, 54; 14.1-2; 17.1-3; 20.17, 31.

This explains why throughout the NT God as the Father of the Son (2 John 3) is "greater than all," i.e., including the Son: John 5.18, 25-27, 41-44; 6.27, 43-46, 68-69; 20.16-17, 31.

Third, the fact that the Son recognized someone other than himself as the one God can be seen by his constant use of what's known as the divine passive. Which is a typically distinctive Jewish way of speaking about the activity of God the Father.

R. Martin, Approaches to NT Exegesis, p. 237:
“[The divine passive became] customary, with an extended usage, on Jesus’ lips. He uses it over 100x [Mat 5.4; Luke 12.7].”​

Thus, identifying the Ultimate Source/Author of all miracles like healing, raising the dead, Creation, etc.

For example, when Jesus says "your sins are forgiven" the Greek implies "by God." Jesus, as the unique authorized Son of God, works as His supreme agent.

So yes, Jesus was the ultimate prophet of God and His Son as well:

 

[benadam1974]

03:29
thing that only god can do he rose

“But there’s one more even better line of evidence. He did the one thing that only God can do. He rose from the dead.”

I missed that sound byte!

 

[Tsarina Andadora]

Disclaimer: I'm only halfway through

Jesus spoke with authority not because he was God, but because he was begotten by God and was 1. Fulfilling and completing the mosaic law. 2. Removing any and all satanic apostasy that had come in during the second temple period (and any prior) and 3. Showing people how to be like him and therefore children of God. Showing us how life in a restored non-satanic realm would be

Most modern "Christianity" is sorely lacking in its understanding of judaism. One thing I'm grateful for, though often mistaught and misapplied, is as a jw I understood a lot about the israelites. I studied with a jewish woman who said jws were like jews who believed in Jesus. The prophets of old said it was from the lord our/your God because some prophets spoke falsely. Some prophets were from satan. Jesus was basically saying, what I say is true AND it is better than the law of Moses for it comes from the Son, the one replacing Adam in his iniquity and giving new life and confirmed hope.

P.s. if anyone is interested in understanding the apostasy that crept in and blossomed during the second temple era I'm able to discuss that on another thread.

 

[Lori Jane]

if we're saying he's just a good teacher or he's just a a wise sage how wise or good could you be if you're somebody who teaches others or thinks you are god

Jesus says he is the only begotten (unique) "Son of God" why can't we just go with that?

There are many gods in the bible (angels, some men, etc.) - Jesus is even referred to as a god but he is not THE God.

There are many "sons of God" (angels, humans, etc.) but there is only one THE Son of God.

There are many lords but there is only one ultimate Lord THE LORD God Almighty (YHWH, Jehovah, Yaweh etc.) and one Lord Messiah - THE Lord Jesus.

Yes we can and do worship Jesus but not as THE ALMIGHTY GOD. The father wants us to worship him, to adore him, to follow him. That does not make Jesus HIM.

IMHO Jesus allowed God's holy spirit to operate through him as we as believers today allow. Jesus did it perfectly and he is our model, our savior, our King and our High Priest.

He never said he was God. He did say about himself:

• Son of God
• Son of Man

 

[Tsarina Andadora]

Okay. Why does this guy not give any scriptures where Jesus accepted worship? Oh I know. Because he didn't. "Don't call me good, for only One is good" comes to mind.

 

[Tsarina Andadora]

because he's saying he can forgive sins

So much to unpack here.

Jesus was anointed by God's holy spirit to show us what God's Kingdom could do through the Son of God that would replace Adam.

Jesus tells us to forgive others so that our Father can forgive us. Why didn't he say to be forgiving so that Jesus would forgive us?

Jesus also stated often that faith was what healed people.

 

[benadam1974]

Okay. Why does this guy not give any scriptures where Jesus accepted worship? Oh I know. Because he didn't. "Don't call me good, for only One is good" comes to mind.

Of course Jesus "accepted worship" (Mat 2.11; 14.33; Rev 4.10, etc.).
The question is whether or not Jesus is receiving worship as the one and only true God!

 

[Lori Jane]

00:45 did jesus really think in his mind
00:49 that he was something more than a
00:50 prophet that he was something more than
00:53 than a man

Jesus knew and was told he was the Son of God - the only begotten son of God.

He spoke as a Son of God - with authority and conviction.

 

[benadam1974]

Jesus knew and was told he was the Son of God - the only begotten son of God.

He spoke as a Son of God - with authority and conviction.

Yes but unfortunately they have reinterpreted Son of God as “God the Son.”

PS The noted British bishop N.T. Wright argues that Jesus did not know "he was God" but he felt it! See Challenge of Jesus, p 121.

 

[mountee]

Hi All,

Folks on this forum may disagree about who Jesus is and was but would we really disagree we all need to worship Jesus?

The apostle Paul says that someday everyone will worship Jesus - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth (Philippians 2:10).

The angels are commanded to worship Jesus.- And when he again brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6).

He Is The Lord Of Glory, this would refer to the Shekinah, or heavenly, glory that belongs to God alone. The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever (2 Timothy 4:18).

Is there a different way to understand these verses than all worship Jesus?

 

[benadam1974]

Hi All,

Folks on this forum may disagree about who Jesus is and was but would we really disagree we all need to worship Jesus?

The apostle Paul says that someday everyone will worship Jesus - That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth (Philippians 2:10).

The angels are commanded to worship Jesus.- And when he again brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "And let all the angels of God worship him" (Hebrews 1:6).

He Is The Lord Of Glory, this would refer to the Shekinah, or heavenly, glory that belongs to God alone. The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever (2 Timothy 4:18).

Is there a different way to understand these verses than all worship Jesus?

It’s one thing to worship someone as the one and only true God and another to worship someone as the only-begotten Son of said God.
For example, Jesus says to Satan that only one Person is worthy of worship as God.
So all those verses have to be understood with those Biblical filters in place, if you will.

 

[Lori Jane]

would we really disagree we all need to worship Jesus?

I agree to and do worship Jesus - but not as God Almighty - as who he is - My Saviour, My King and My High Priest! I love him with all my heart!

 

[mountee]

It’s one thing is to worship someone as the one and only true God and another to worship someone as the only-begotten Son of said God.
For example, Jesus says to Satan that only one Person is worthy of worship as God.
So all those verses have to be understood with those Biblical filters in place, if you will.

Nice to hear you worship Jesus, and would you worship him just as much as you worship our heavenly father? (John 5:23)

 

[benadam1974]

Nice to hear you worship Jesus, and would you worship him just as much as you worship our heavenly father? (John 5:23)

Of course but again, not as the one and only true God, who Jesus identifies as the Father "only" in John 17:1-3.

We also pray to Jesus, as the nations will "pray to" the redeemed Israel in the future: Isa 45.14.

 

[mountee]

Of course but again, not as the one and only true God, who Jesus identifies as the Father "only" in John 17:1-3.

We also pray to Jesus, as the nations will "pray to" the redeemed Israel in the future: Isa 45.14.

Interesting perspective, but if we are only meant to worship one God and not two, how do you then also Worship Jesus as a separate God?

Verses on only worshiping God Ex 20:1-3, Matt 4:10, Luke 4:8, Isa 43:10,

Verses on worshipping Jesus John 5:23; Heb 1:6; Matt 8:2, 14:33, 28:9,17; John 9:38; Luke 24:52; Rev 5:12-14

 

[Lori Jane]

“Worship” Defined​

“The Hebrew word means to bow down, prostrate. The Greek word means to prostrate, do obeisance to. The honor, reverence and homage paid to superior beings or powers, whether men, angels or God. The English word meant ‘worthship’ and denotes the worthiness of the individual receiving the special honor due to his worth. While the word is used of men, it is especially used of divine honors paid to deity, whether of the heathen religions or the true and living God” (New International Dictionary of the Bible).

 

[Lori Jane]

“The worship of Christ on completely equivalent terms to that of God does not occur within the pages of the New Testament” (Kenneth Schenk, “A Celebration of the Enthroned Son: The Catena of Hebrews 1,” JBL 120/3, 2001, pp. 469-485).

 

[mountee]

“The worship of Christ on completely equivalent terms to that of God does not occur within the pages of the New Testament” (Kenneth Schenk, “A Celebration of the Enthroned Son: The Catena of Hebrews 1,” JBL 120/3, 2001, pp. 469-485).

Hi, that's an interesting perspective, does that mean Unitarians believe they do not practice polytheism because they worship one God more than the other God, i.e. worship the Father more than they worship Jesus.

I'm not aware of any definition of polytheism (worship of many Gods) being dependant on the amount one worships them relative to each other.

I guess that's where the key difference is with trinitarians, trinitarians would never practice polytheism and would only ever worship one God. Isa 44:6. that seems to be the crux of the difference