Rebuttal Why does a benevolent, omnipotent God permit Evil?

[Marty]

Administrators Note: This reply is in In response to post in Christian Monotarian forum https://simplychristian.faith/commu...ent-omnipotent-god-permit-evil.883/#post-2259 and moved here as it is a "gentle debate" response.

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I wholeheartedly disagree.

First, the only Bible passage you do quote, you quote completely out of context. As a result, if I used evil as you defined in this passages, evil would mean such things as diseases and earthquakes. If you don't have a good definition of evil then you'll get nods from the choir but to everyone else you are talking gibberish.

Second, the word omnipotence is problematic. Whenever you use this word, you need to define it more precisely because omnipotence has a lot of baggage. In Classical Theism, which is the majority of "Christianity", omnipotence is used to describe how God created everything, all time, and all actions in one simple action - Probably not what you were thinking of.

Third, you use the term "free will" without realizing it is a tautology. Once again, a term with even more baggage which requires a very, very careful definition with some knowledge of the baggage that term contains.

So, you're using non-biblical terms without proper context.

Next, you are using circular reasoning in your arguments. You start with "God creates Good and in order to preserve Goods’ potential Evil must also exist in potential", reword that sentence several different ways and end up with " Evil is necessary in order to preserve the potential of Good." Most of your writing involves this. You reword what you said before and claim that as the proof.

Once again, this circular logic is fine if you talking to the choir but will fail with anyone else.

 

[Paolo]

Thank you Marty for your response.
You make some interesting observations.
Admittedly the first half of my paper is technical and borrows from quantum mechanical experiments such as the 2 slit experiment. Of course this subject is difficult at best and impossible at worst to cover in such a short paper. My apologies if it lacked in detail or exactness.
The meanings of Evil, Omnipotence and freewill you say are not well defined. You may be right, you are free to express your opinion. My dictionary makes it quite clear as to their meaning. As for Evil you are right that verse in Isaiah does require more amplified consideration especially as to natural disasters and the like.
Please consider that the paper is terse, hence was never written to exhaustively cover every possible ramification.
I never claimed to offer proof, mine was an argument from logic only.
You are also right that I do reword statements, but you are wrong to say that this is circular logic. I am endeavouring to reiterate a concept, that is all, so as to render it more accessible, hence the second half of the paper is by way of an illustration.
I notice you make no observations on the second half of the paper, the simple examples proposed are in very plain language and no confusing meanings of words or circular logic to be seen.
Even the priest and the choir could understand it.
Finally I would say that your response is critical in tone, which I am fine with, but it decidedly lacks a bed side manner and betrays a directness that is without tact.
I do not know you from a bar of soap, you may be the nicest person, or not, I can not tell via a forum.
I do however pray your motive is to build me up rather than tear down and will grant you the benefit of the doubt as Christians ought.

I hope one day to talk face to face and maybe I will better appreciate your comments as a direct expression of the person you are in reality and not only virtually. Until then I appreciate your response, may God bless!

 

[Lori Jane]

Thanks for replying @Paolo. I appreciate GENTLE debates when they come up.

For all - please keep your articles coming - "iron sharpens iron".

 

[LeeB]

God is not evil nor did He create evil. I do not use verbal gymnastics or $50.00 words, I write what the spirit of God teaches me and I do not apologize for that . The question is , why does God permit evil. Since God says that HE is not creating other Yahwehs, Isaiah 43:10 , all other self aware beings are in every way less than HE. It is spiritually illogical to think God would have created evil when scripture is filled with how much God hates evil. This idea would make God His own worst enemy.
Both angels and humans were created by God spiritually neutral, neither good or evil and with their own ability to choose. A third of the angels under the command of the archangel Lucifer rebelled against God when Lucifer discovered that God was going to set humans over His creation rather than him. This rebellion is what caused the damage God repaired in the Genesis. Lucifer becomes Satan who is now evil by his own choice. The two thirds of the angels who remained loyal to God were, like humans will be to enter the kingdom, sealed in righteousness. After all these things is the story of Adam and Eve , who at first had no concept of what good and evil is, become the targets of Satan. God did not prevent Satan from having access to Adam and Eve. God is the one who placed those two trees in the midst of the garden. This was a test, not for God but for Adam and Eve, because God already knew what would happen but wanted the man to make the choice to either love and obey God or not. Remember God gave Adam dominion over the Earth , that Satan would obtain , and Adam could have ordered Satan out of Eden. The two trees represented life or death and Adam chose death because he harkened to the voice of his wife and not the voice of God because Adam loved Eve more than God. The answer to the original question is because it is what Adam chose, what Adam had sown he also reaped not only for himself but for all humanity. Thus Jesus became the lamb that God said would exist in the future as Gods vehicle of salvation.

 

[Outcast]

God is not evil nor did He create evil. I do not use verbal gymnastics or $50.00 words, I write what the spirit of God teaches me and I do not apologize for that . The question is , why does God permit evil. Since God says that HE is not creating other Yahwehs, Isaiah 43:10 , all other self aware beings are in every way less than HE. It is spiritually illogical to think God would have created evil when scripture is filled with how much God hates evil. This idea would make God His own worst enemy.
Both angels and humans were created by God spiritually neutral, neither good or evil and with their own ability to choose. A third of the angels under the command of the archangel Lucifer rebelled against God when Lucifer discovered that God was going to set humans over His creation rather than him. This rebellion is what caused the damage God repaired in the Genesis. Lucifer becomes Satan who is now evil by his own choice. The two thirds of the angels who remained loyal to God were, like humans will be to enter the kingdom, sealed in righteousness. After all these things is the story of Adam and Eve , who at first had no concept of what good and evil is, become the targets of Satan. God did not prevent Satan from having access to Adam and Eve. God is the one who placed those two trees in the midst of the garden. This was a test, not for God but for Adam and Eve, because God already knew what would happen but wanted the man to make the choice to either love and obey God or not. Remember God gave Adam dominion over the Earth , that Satan would obtain , and Adam could have ordered Satan out of Eden. The two trees represented life or death and Adam chose death because he harkened to the voice of his wife and not the voice of God because Adam loved Eve more than God. The answer to the original question is because it is what Adam chose, what Adam had sown he also reaped not only for himself but for all humanity. Thus Jesus became the lamb that God said would exist in the future as Gods vehicle of salvation.

My brother, I do appreciate your responses. I differ here with the idea of "verbal gymnastics," because much of the deceit within the pages of our Bibles is the result of verbal gymnastics. I wish it were not so, but I constantly find that readers are confused because of word selections made by translators. Sometimes, I think it is important to point them out in hopes that people will understand what has been done. The constant substitution of the name Yahweh with the word Lord puts a vagueness in verses. Also, the term "evil" used in combining "bad events' and "wickedness" into the same thought creates confusion. While I agree with your writing here, I think I must defend those word examination with students because most of them are overcoming years of being misled. God bless you for your efforts.

 

[LeeB]

It has been my experience that the Holy Spirit is able to help us overcome poor or deliberate translations. If this were not true then no one would ever understand. We know the word of God cannot be broken. There are thousands of lies but only one truth and the spirit can lead us through those lies to find that truth. I was only affirming That I do not use words to deceive or speak great swelling words of emptiness. The spirit is able to do what men can’t. Those who are overcoming have the helper and no need to have any man teach them , they have the anointing that teaches them. Spiritual healing removes any trauma inflicted on us by the enemy. We are empowered to leave the past behind us and move forward.

 

[Outcast]

It has been my experience that the Holy Spirit is able to help us overcome poor or deliberate translations. If this were not true then no one would ever understand. We know the word of God cannot be broken. There are thousands of lies but only one truth and the spirit can lead us through those lies to find that truth. I was only affirming That I do not use words to deceive or speak great swelling words of emptiness. The spirit is able to do what men can’t. Those who are overcoming have the helper and no need to have any man teach them , they have the anointing that teaches them. Spiritual healing removes any trauma inflicted on us by the enemy. We are empowered to leave the past behind us and move forward.

Yes, I understand your position on this, and I can only offer to explain that there are those who have been taught to accept things through their emotions and not through their minds. (That would lead to a much longer discussion.) . I am a "nut and bolt" examining type. I was deceived for a long time because I knew not how to examine scripture. Yes, prayer and God's response taught me, but the gift of teaching is given by the Spirit of God for a purpose.

 

[LeeB]

I too am a nut and bolt type. I agree with your statement that emotions are not the sound mind the spirit produces. How you say you were taught is how everyone is taught. Paul and Apollos could preach but God had to give the increase, the understanding . In the church if the spirit revealed something to one the others would listen and consider, that is they process the information the spirit revealed and by trying the spirits with what the spirit had already taught them they would would see the truth or the error in what was said. This process kept lies and deceptions out and let truth in understanding prevail. When the word teach or teaching appears in scripture this was understood. This is why John said, you have no need that any man teach you and why Jesus identifies the Spirit as the teacher. If it was as simple as one person telling another then why is there so much lie and deception in the world. This also gives God all the glory and shows His love. This is how the small group I fellowship with operates and rather than the one man show of the worlds churches everyone has a part . It is orderly group participation in love under the direct guidance and control of God.
1 John 2:27 , Jeremiah 31:34 , Matthew 13:11 , John 14:26 , 1 Corinthians 2:13 , Ephesians 4:21

 

[Outcast]

Fully agree. While I lead scriptural studies, my words were meant to open my brothers' and sisters' eyes to things they had never realized before. Acceptance or not, they had the passages to consider. The discussions are just a mechanism to enable consideration.

 

[LeeB]

When we came to understanding in the WCG we tried to help others understand but it was not to be. They could not understand our words and we had to back away because we saw that God was not at this time working with them. 1 John 4:5-6 Is what we experienced with them. We were sad because of this but we understood why it went that way. We do not not need to worry about these people because when God is ready they too will have opportunity.