English Trini Debate Tonight
- Thread starter benadam1974
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Hi Carlos, I think you cleaned that Messianic rabbi's clock -- well done!
I've heard mention of "complex unity" before -- here's a typical example: https://evidencetobelieve.com/the-holy-trinity-in-scripture/.
I thought that you handled the matter very well by pointing out that it's one thing to talk about a unity underlying attributes or parts and entirely another to talk about a unity consisting of different persons. The latter is gobbledygook.
Also you did a fine job in nailing his reliance on the Sephirot of the Zohar, which most Jews consider another form of gobbledygook.
The whole discussion reminds me of the impossible problems that Peter Abelard created for himself by trying to explain the Trinity rationally via the use of analogies. I talk about this in my chapter on Abelard in Aristotle's Children.
The bottom line is that some forms of "complex unity" reduce the persons of the Trinity to functions or attributes of God (Abelard: God's "Power", "Wisdom", and "Goodness"), which is Sabellianism. Other forms insist on the reality of separate persons, but this generates either tritheism or Arianism (separate and unequal persons).
What the rabbi's cleverness and learning, both impressive, simply couldn't overcome was the fact that the Shema has such a powerful historical negative meaning: to Jews it means that our God, unlike that of most other peoples in the Middle East, and later in Europe and elsewhere, is NOT plural but singular.
The idea of a God composed of multiple persons makes most Jews' blood run cold, since it is exactly what the Shema repudiates when it says, in effect, that God is not a personification of the river, the storm, the mountain, the spirit of war, the spirit of sex, etc.
To me the oddest thing about these Jeshua guys is that they don't appeal to Jews to become Christians on the basis that Jesus is compatible with the Shema since he is a man with a unique relationship to God, not a part of the -- ugh! -- "Godhead." But you understand this better than I do.
Richard E. Rubenstein
University Professor
Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter School
for Peace and Conflict Resolution
George Mason University
I've heard mention of "complex unity" before -- here's a typical example: https://evidencetobelieve.com/the-holy-trinity-in-scripture/.
I thought that you handled the matter very well by pointing out that it's one thing to talk about a unity underlying attributes or parts and entirely another to talk about a unity consisting of different persons. The latter is gobbledygook.
Also you did a fine job in nailing his reliance on the Sephirot of the Zohar, which most Jews consider another form of gobbledygook.
The whole discussion reminds me of the impossible problems that Peter Abelard created for himself by trying to explain the Trinity rationally via the use of analogies. I talk about this in my chapter on Abelard in Aristotle's Children.
The bottom line is that some forms of "complex unity" reduce the persons of the Trinity to functions or attributes of God (Abelard: God's "Power", "Wisdom", and "Goodness"), which is Sabellianism. Other forms insist on the reality of separate persons, but this generates either tritheism or Arianism (separate and unequal persons).
What the rabbi's cleverness and learning, both impressive, simply couldn't overcome was the fact that the Shema has such a powerful historical negative meaning: to Jews it means that our God, unlike that of most other peoples in the Middle East, and later in Europe and elsewhere, is NOT plural but singular.
The idea of a God composed of multiple persons makes most Jews' blood run cold, since it is exactly what the Shema repudiates when it says, in effect, that God is not a personification of the river, the storm, the mountain, the spirit of war, the spirit of sex, etc.
To me the oddest thing about these Jeshua guys is that they don't appeal to Jews to become Christians on the basis that Jesus is compatible with the Shema since he is a man with a unique relationship to God, not a part of the -- ugh! -- "Godhead." But you understand this better than I do.
Richard E. Rubenstein
University Professor
Jimmy and Rosalynn Carter School
for Peace and Conflict Resolution
George Mason University