General The Beginning of New Covenant Christianity

[benadam1974]

by [email protected]

Hebrews 9:17 is often used to teach the New Covenant started only at or after the cross. The Barnes' Notes on the New Testament says the phrase “Is of force means Is ratified, or confirmed - in the same way as a deed or compact is confirmed by affixing a seal." This interpretation is proven by the Hebrews writer using Moses and the first covenant as an example in v.18 and following.

We also see how back in Exodus 24 the blood of animals effectively sealed, or ratified the covenant at Sinai. Yet, back in Exodus 19 (after Moses first spoke the words of that covenant) the people all answered together:

“All that the Lord has commanded we will do!”

The point is the blood later sprinkled in Ex 24 was not in and of itself the covenant at Sinai, anymore than Jesus' blood and death on a cross was the New Covenant. Or picture the following analogy:
The blood is like a signature on a document but no one would put their signature on a blank document, I.e., a document without any words on it.

Again, the blood simply represents the ratifying, i.e., the seal of the covenant that had already been established. In the case of the New Covenant, due to the words of both John and especially the Messiah, as Hebrews 9 repeatedly says:

16b the death of the one who made it [i.e., the NC].

17b while the one who made it [i.e., the NC] lives.

 

[LeeB]

Circumcision was given to Abraham as a sign between him and God that in him all the nations of the Earth would be blessed . From Abraham to King David to Mary the promise of a messiah in their future would lead to the fulfillment of the sign of circumcision. Abraham saw this afar off and believed and his faith was counted as righteousness even before he was circumcised. The baptism of Jesus was to fulfill all righteousness that those who were circumcised with the sign and had faith would be sealed into the new covenant including gentiles. The death of the testator was the fulfillment of all the new covenant. The old covenant was totally separate from the new and was not abolished by Jesus as the unconverted world is yet under it. Only the church escapes the covenant of the law. Since Abraham knew the gospel he had the promise the was later fulfilled so in a sense the new covenant promise came before the law of the old. In other words faith and grace is older than law.

 

[LeeB]

Faith and grace goes all the back to Able, the second son of Adam. Hebrews calls Able, righteous Able. The only way for anyone to be called righteous is for God to impute righteousness to one of faith. Able was as far as I know the very first Christian. Able is part of the root of the olive tree. Just as Abraham, king David and all the prophets, Able was a man of faith. These people are what Paul described as the church in the wilderness. These people were part of Gods elect saints and will be in the first resurrection along with the saints after Christ. In Leviticus 23:17 the two loaves of bread baked with leaven symbolize the complete church, the one before Jesus and the one after Jesus. Together they are the first fruits, Revelation 14:4 .

 

[LeeB]

Faith and grace goes all the back to Able, the second son of Adam. Hebrews calls Able, righteous Able. The only way for anyone to be called righteous is for God to impute righteousness to one of faith. Able was as far as I know the very first Christian. Able is part of the root of the olive tree. Just as Abraham, king David and all the prophets, Able was a man of faith. These people are what Paul described as the church in the wilderness. These people were part of Gods elect saints and will be in the first resurrection along with the saints after Christ. In Leviticus 23:17 the two loaves of bread baked with leaven symbolize the complete church, the one before Jesus and the one after Jesus. Together they are the first fruits, Revelation 14:4 .

This brief comment agrees with everything else that I have written concerning the church and who GOD puts into it. Over thousands of years GOD has called and chosen people to be HIS elect saints. These saints are the complete church composed of former Jews and Gentiles. The vail is only torn from top to bottom for the saints while it yet remains on the hearts of the unconverted. The vail can only be taken away for those in Christ. This vail still exists today. GOD HIMSELF exposed the most holy place of the physical temple to show HIS saints the true spiritual temple. To give the saints the eyes to see and ears to hear, a mind to comprehend the spiritual meaning of all the symbolism of the law and temple worship system. To bring the saints out of those shadows and into the light. Ezekiel 20:25 Jeremiah 7:24,25,26 2 Chronicles 36:14,15,16 Carnal Israel fought against GOD every step of the way up to and including murdering HIS son.

 

[Outcast]

Another confusing issue for me with words, plans, and thoughts.

The term "new covenant" clashes with your explanation. I realize that it all make sense to you; but I wrestle with it. The book of Isaiah which, was written starting 700 years before the birth of Yeshua, includes Yahweh's plan for a New Covenant.

So, the New Covenant - technically - did not yet exist until Yahweh announced His plan for it. The term of "pre-existence" can explain that one can be a part of that announced covenant by simply having faith in it. Your explanation appears to say that the New Covenant was in effect prior to being ratified by the shedding of the blood of the Son of God.

So, there I am - another "chicken or the egg" question.

In short, without that prophecy from Yahweh, there could be no "Christians." It may seem like I am playing a word game, but I am a detail kind of person who has to organized his mental file cabinet.

Then, Lee, you assert that nobody can be in two covenants at the same time. Yet, Yahweh gave Moses "the Law" 1400 years before the birth of Yeshua. That is when the "people of circumcision" started. There are zero reasons - that I am aware of - to think that King David was not circumcized and a law keeper - not scripturally, anyway.

700 years after "the Law" came, Isaiah announced prophecy that Yahweh will give a New Covenant in the future. This covenant was not ratified until the crucifixion took place. That is when the veil was torn.

I am NOT saying that Yahweh could not have chosen people to receive mercy, grace, or His spirit before all of that. One could claim that, at that point, God removed them from The Law.

I am saying it is misleading to me, at least, to refer to them as Christians. I can go with the thought that people from the time of Adam and Eve can be added to God's church - perhaps despite whether they were Old Covenant or New.

What do you think of that?

 

[LeeB]

In Eden there were two trees. The tree of knowledge was death, the tree of life was immortality. At this time both covenants were placed before Adam. YAHWEH, through an angel, explained to Adam that the knowledge tree would kill him, this is what the law does, gives knowledge that kills, because without YAHWEH the knowledge would lead to sin and death. Adam chose the old covenant for humanity, sin still reigned from Adam to Moses even though the knowledge in the tree was not yet codified on tables of stone. The law made sin even more sinful and served as a deterrent to sin but could never eliminate sin.
YAHWEH speaks of things that do not yet exist as though they do. YAHWEH speaks eternally, HIS words cover all time. Incorporated into YAHWEHS “plan” from the beginning was salvation since HE knows all things, the end from the beginning and from ancient times things that have not yet been done. We know that from when YAHWEH spoke all things were done, HE is not bound by time. Humans experience a very slow motion viewing of a movie that has already happened. I have no problem with calling ancient people Christians because Christians are YAHWEH worshippers. The definition of faith in Hebrew 11:1 , things hoped for that are unseen, applies to all YAHWEH Worshippers. The ancient ones before Christ looked forward , we look backward, but both see the same Christ. The promise of the Christ was fulfilled but the promise of everlasting life as a glorified impeccable spirit being is still a promise that neither we nor they have received. Time is irrelevant to YAHWEH and HIS worshippers . The foundational principles of YAHWEHS salvation of humanity are the same for all YAHWEH worshipper of any age, all are of the way of the tree of immortality that is Christ who is the bridge between what was and what is. Christ is the centerpiece of YAHWEHS plan. While there are people on both ends Christ is the center. All people from any time , time is irrelevant, it is Spirit that is relevant.

 

[LeeB]

I look at the people listed in Hebrews 11 and they had the same faith the saints are to have today. It says the world was not worthy of these people, that they all wanted a better resurrection and looked for a city whose builder and maker is GOD, the new Jerusalem. It did not matter if the law was known or unknown they lived their lives in the righteousness of GOD imputed by faith. I see where saints were resurrected when Christ died on the cross. This means they died before Jesus did, showing there were saints before Jesus. The first resurrection is for the church only, the saints, all other will be in the second resurrection. The 144,000 are the elect of GOD from Able to the last one who is sealed in their foreheads. Many times the church is said to be composed of the prophets and Apostles with Jesus the chief cornerstone. These ancient Christians are our brothers in the faith. They are referred to as brethren, Revelation 22:9 Jethro , Noah and Melchizedek; 2 Peter 2:5 Exodus 18:1 Hebrews 7:1 None of these men were priests of the law. Luke 13:28 Matthew 8:11

 

[LeeB]

Another confusing issue for me with words, plans, and thoughts.

The term "new covenant" clashes with your explanation. I realize that it all make sense to you; but I wrestle with it. The book of Isaiah which, was written starting 700 years before the birth of Yeshua, includes Yahweh's plan for a New Covenant.

So, the New Covenant - technically - did not yet exist until Yahweh announced His plan for it. The term of "pre-existence" can explain that one can be a part of that announced covenant by simply having faith in it. Your explanation appears to say that the New Covenant was in effect prior to being ratified by the shedding of the blood of the Son of God.

So, there I am - another "chicken or the egg" question.

In short, without that prophecy from Yahweh, there could be no "Christians." It may seem like I am playing a word game, but I am a detail kind of person who has to organized his mental file cabinet.

Then, Lee, you assert that nobody can be in two covenants at the same time. Yet, Yahweh gave Moses "the Law" 1400 years before the birth of Yeshua. That is when the "people of circumcision" started. There are zero reasons - that I am aware of - to think that King David was not circumcized and a law keeper - not scripturally, anyway.

700 years after "the Law" came, Isaiah announced prophecy that Yahweh will give a New Covenant in the future. This covenant was not ratified until the crucifixion took place. That is when the veil was torn.

I am NOT saying that Yahweh could not have chosen people to receive mercy, grace, or His spirit before all of that. One could claim that, at that point, God removed them from The Law.

I am saying it is misleading to me, at least, to refer to them as Christians. I can go with the thought that people from the time of Adam and Eve can be added to God's church - perhaps despite whether they were Old Covenant or New.

What do you think of that?

They were the root of the olive tree that you and I are grafted into . We become part of the olive tree, the root supports you and I. Romans 12:17,18,19,20 Ephesians 2:11,12,13 Galatians 3:29 Ephesians 3:6 Isaiah 51:1,2 Jeremiah 11:16 John 10:16 Isaiah 56:8 Psalm 100:3
Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. YAHWEH wants men after HIS own image , according to HIS likeness, this was not Adam, it was Christ. From the beginning the reason for humanity was stated. There are about 300 prophecies about Jesus before his birth. Before there was even an Israel there were people that believed in a future messiah, they had faith in Christ before there was a Christ. The sign of circumcision began with Abraham indicating that messiah would come through Abrahams flesh. The sacrifice of Isaac that was halted showed the faith of Abraham and typed the sacrifice of Jesus that Abraham understood when he told Isaac, the LORD will provide a lamb.
In you shall all the nations of the earth will be blessed ,GOD told Abraham, and you and I are still waiting for the promises that GOD gave to this man Abraham. When those promises are fulfilled you and I as well as Abraham and everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 and all the elect saints of YAHWEH, all Christians from all of times will be glorified together. Hebrews 11:40 Ancient and modern Christians receive the promises together and collectively they are called saints, the redeemed of the earth, the 144,000, the church of YAHWEH.

 

[Outcast]

They were the root of the olive tree that you and I are grafted into . We become part of the olive tree, the root supports you and I. Romans 12:17,18,19,20 Ephesians 2:11,12,13 Galatians 3:29 Ephesians 3:6 Isaiah 51:1,2 Jeremiah 11:16 John 10:16 Isaiah 56:8 Psalm 100:3
Jesus was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. YAHWEH wants men after HIS own image , according to HIS likeness, this was not Adam, it was Christ. From the beginning the reason for humanity was stated. There are about 300 prophecies about Jesus before his birth. Before there was even an Israel there were people that believed in a future messiah, they had faith in Christ before there was a Christ. The sign of circumcision began with Abraham indicating that messiah would come through Abrahams flesh. The sacrifice of Isaac that was halted showed the faith of Abraham and typed the sacrifice of Jesus that Abraham understood when he told Isaac, the LORD will provide a lamb.
In you shall all the nations of the earth will be blessed ,GOD told Abraham, and you and I are still waiting for the promises that GOD gave to this man Abraham. When those promises are fulfilled you and I as well as Abraham and everyone mentioned in Hebrews 11 and all the elect saints of YAHWEH, all Christians from all of times will be glorified together. Hebrews 11:40 Ancient and modern Christians receive the promises together and collectively they are called saints, the redeemed of the earth, the 144,000, the church of YAHWEH.

Thank you Lee for this response, but it leaves me wondering if I presented by question thoroughly. I have an issue with the claim that the New Covenant actually existed prior to the time of Yeshua. Grace and mercy have, but that did not stop the existence the covenant of Moses or the Law. Your explanation did not clarify for me how you see something differently.

The people of Israel, under The Law, also believed in a coming Messiah, but that did not put them in the New Covenant.

 

[LeeB]

The new covenant was lived by those ancient Christians but confirmed by Christ. Romans 15:8 Acts 3:25,26 Acts 13:32,33 Genesis 17:7
The giving of the law did not make the promise to Abraham of no effect.
Galatians 3:15,16,17,18 When Jesus came to John the Baptist to be baptized it was not for Jesus but rather to fulfill all righteousness. Matthew 3:15 This baptism of Jesus fulfilled the sign of circumcision.
Romans 4:11 This is why Jesus was baptized, not for himself, but for the fulfillment of the sign of circumcision . The death and resurrection of Christ along with the gospel he preached was the confirmation of the covenant of faith, grace, repentance, forgiveness and agape for Abraham and for us. We today must have faith and believe in what Christ accomplished and we look back on that time and believe even though we have not seen. John 20:29 Abraham looked forward, afar off, and saw the things we look back on. Neither we nor Abraham were present to witness the Christ event, we were not there to see with our eyes and hear with our ears, but yet have believed. So you see we have much in common with Abraham and he with us. We are all brothers in the one true faith. When it happened is irrelevant, that it did happen is relevant. The new covenant is the tree of life, of immortality, and that tree is Jesus, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Blood spilled across time from then until now. Hebrews 10:12 The sacrifice of Christ is a one time atonement for all of time from sin past, present and future. The blood of Christ is spilled across all of time. Is this not the message of the gospel, is this not the new covenant and the faith of all Christians ?

 

[Outcast]

Well, this is evidence that my question is not clear enough.

NOTE: your verses indicate something exists because of a past tense action:

Romans 15:8
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,

Acts 3:25,26
You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Acts 13:32,33
And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “ ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’

It appears plain to me that there were no Christians until Christ Jesus ratified the New Covenant. To me, that is a distinct situation from receiving mercy or grace from Yahweh.

 

[LeeB]

Well, this is evidence that my question is not clear enough.

NOTE: your verses indicate something exists because of a past tense action:

Romans 15:8
For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs,

Acts 3:25,26
You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’ God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning every one of you from your wickedness.”

Acts 13:32,33
And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “ ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’

It appears plain to me that there were no Christians until Christ Jesus ratified the New Covenant. To me, that is a distinct situation from receiving mercy or grace from Yahweh.

Receiving mercy and grace from YAHWEH is what makes us a Christian. Mercy and grace from YAHWEH is the new covenant. The law covenant gave no mercy no grace and it did not matter if you were Jew or gentile. The new covenant gives mercy and grace and did not care if you were Jew or gentile.

 

[Outcast]

Receiving mercy and grace from YAHWEH is what makes us a Christian. Mercy and grace from YAHWEH is the new covenant. The law covenant gave no mercy no grace and it did not matter if you were Jew or gentile. The new covenant gives mercy and grace and did not care if you were Jew or gentile.

Well, my brother, I will rely on scripture. Yahweh said that he will (future tense) provide a NEW Covenant.

The passages your refer to a reaction based on a past-tense action. I can't get around that in order to accept your view.