Devotional One Body

The "new man" from both Jew and Gentile is exactly that: new [Eph 2:15]. Interestingly, there are today many converts to Christianity from Judaism who still hold to the Jewish laws and believe that the law is valid for them since they are Jews.
We believe that misses the point of the message in the Church Epistles. What Christ is doing now for Christians is very different than what God did for Jews and Gentiles under the Law. Christians are not to be separated into different congregations, some "messianic Jews" and some "Gentile congregations.”
The Epistles contain directives not to be separate from each other or form distinct groups (1 Cor. 1: 10-13). They reveal that the Levitical requirements were a shadow of the reality which is Christ (Col. 3: 17), and that the Law was done away in Christ. Since the Law was given to Moses, if it was to be done away with, that fact had to be written very clearly, and it was: Christ abolished the Law (Eph. 2:15) and was the end of the Law (Rom. 10: 4). Christians are not under the Law (Rom. 6: 14, 15), are dead to the Law (Rom. 7:5), are released from the Law (Rom. 7: 6; 8: 2) and are not under the supervision of the Law (Gal. 3: 25).

http://www.christan.ru/index.files/Texts_HTML/One_God_One_Lord_1-3.htm

 

[LeeB]

You are incorrect in your statement that the law was abolished by Christ.
The law , not one jot or tittle, will not pass away until heaven and Earth pass away and that is a very longtime from now. Revelation 21:1 The law yet exists in full force to be a schoolmaster to lead people to Christ. Romans 3:19 The entire unconverted world is under the law and condemned to death because of sin. Jesus provides a new covenant to escape this condemnation and come under grace. Jesus had no need or desire to abolish the law. Matthew 5:17 Romans 7:1 this authority of the law is only upon the people who are not in Christ. Romans 10:4 It is only the carnal world that is yet under the law. To escape the law you must be in Christ, Passover from the old covenant into the new covenant. The law defines what sin is but if it is abolished then there is no sin. Romans 5:13 Only the saints are dead to the law, buried with Christ, the carnal world is not. The only way to not be under the law other than Christ is to be dead.

 

[Petunia]

What about Romans 2:12-16?

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ps.147:19-20 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

As I see it: all people are under the sin, but not all people are onder the Law. The Jews have their law that condemns them, the gentiles have their conscience as Law that condemns them. All need Christ to be freed from sin.

 

[LeeB]

What about Romans 2:12-16?

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ps.147:19-20 He sheweth his word unto Jacob, his statutes and his judgments unto Israel. He hath not dealt so with any nation: and as for his judgments, they have not known them. Praise ye the LORD.

As I see it: all people are under the sin, but not all people are onder the Law. The Jews have their law that condemns them, the gentiles have their conscience as Law that condemns them. All need Christ to be freed from sin.

How can that be when scripture defines sin as the transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 It is concluded then that both Jews and Gentiles are all under the power of sin. 1 Corinthians 15:56 Romans 3:9 The law says that the whole world is accountable, the whole world is under the law. There is not one law for Jews and another for Gentiles as there is not one way to salvation for Jews and another for Gentiles. There is one law and one way to salvation for all people.

 

[LeeB]

The nation of Israel was indeed given the old covenant but this does not exclude gentiles from sin. Exodus 12:49 , Leviticus 24:22 , Numbers 15:15 Israel was to be a model nation for all other nations but failed to keep the covenant, if Israel had kept their covenant it would have produced that which Isaiah describes. Isaiah 14:1 The law yet exists to condemn the world in spite of Israel’s failure. Romans 11:7,32 If gentiles were never under the law then it would not be possible for them to sin. The law condemns all people so that GOD may have mercy on everyone. It says, “For ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD”. That is all of humanity Jew or gentile. Romans 10:12 , Romans 3:29,30 The law is a tool GOD uses to show all people their sins to produce GODLY sorrow that leads to repentance and forgiveness and conversion, receiving the Holy Spirit, becoming a Christian.

 

[Petunia]

The nation of Israel was indeed given the old covenant but this does not exclude gentiles from sin. Exodus 12:49 , Leviticus 24:22 , Numbers 15:15 Israel was to be a model nation for all other nations but failed to keep the covenant, if Israel had kept their covenant it would have produced that which Isaiah describes. Isaiah 14:1 The law yet exists to condemn the world in spite of Israel’s failure. Romans 11:7,32 If gentiles were never under the law then it would not be possible for them to sin. The law condemns all people so that GOD may have mercy on everyone. It says, “For ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD”. That is all of humanity Jew or gentile. Romans 10:12 , Romans 3:29,30 The law is a tool GOD uses to show all people their sins to produce GODLY sorrow that leads to repentance and forgiveness and conversion, receiving the Holy Spirit, becoming a Christian.

I feel as if we aren’t talking about the same thing

I think we’re talking about the Mosaic Law, the Law God gave to Israel through Moses, including the ten commandments, the laws for purification, sacrifices, moral laws, all the feasts, etc.

What do you mean by law? Are you saying that gentiles should keep all those laws? Including the sacrifices and the holidays?

LeeB: “If gentiles were never under the law then it would not be possible for them to sin”

But sin existed already before the Mosaic Law, so they were not under the Mosaic Law, but sinned nevertheless.
Rom. 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses …

 

[LeeB]

The nation of Israel was indeed given the old covenant but this does not exclude gentiles from sin. Exodus 12:49 , Leviticus 24:22 , Numbers 15:15 Israel was to be a model nation for all other nations but failed to keep the covenant, if Israel had kept their covenant it would have produced that which Isaiah describes. Isaiah 14:1 The law yet exists to condemn the world in spite of Israel’s failure. Romans 11:7,32 If gentiles were never under the law then it would not be possible for them to sin. The law condemns all people so that GOD may have mercy on everyone. It says, “For ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of GOD”. That is all of humanity Jew or gentile. Romans 10:12 , Romans 3:29,30 The law is a tool GOD uses to show all people their sins to produce GODLY sorrow that leads to repentance and forgiveness and conversion, receiving the Holy Spirit, becoming a Christian.

I feel as if we aren’t talking about the same thing

I think we’re talking about the Mosaic Law, the Law God gave to Israel through Moses, including the ten commandments, the laws for purification, sacrifices, moral laws, all the feasts, etc.

What do you mean by law? Are you saying that gentiles should keep all those laws? Including the sacrifices and the holidays?

LeeB: “If gentiles were never under the law then it would not be possible for them to sin”

But sin existed already before the Mosaic Law, so they were not under the Mosaic Law, but sinned nevertheless.
Rom. 5:12-14 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses …

The entire law incorporated everything, Romans 9:4 , Jews and Gentiles that are in Christ are not under any of these laws. They are under the “law of Christ “ the two great commandments of love GOD and neighbor. Israel had the oracles of GOD, the shadows and not the substance. In spite of Israel breaking the covenant the law yet survives.
Paul explains how the law made sin even more sinful. Even though the Gentiles were not chosen to receive the law that law applied to all people, not just Israel but everyone who was not there the day it was given, Deuteronomy 29:14,15 The law is the knowledge of good and evil spelled out by the angels finger giving specific instructions and examples of law breaking but is silent on the punishment for sin. The law was the statutes and the book of the law of Moses contained the blessings and cursing as well as the methods of punishment for people that broke the Ten Commandments. At the temple was there not an outer court for the gentiles ? If Israel had not broken the covenant it was GODS intention to bring the world under the law but in spite of this the whole unconverted world is still under sin and sin is the transgression of the law. Paul marvels about this very thing in Romans 11:30,31,32 Sin is the same for all unconverted people because GOD is fair and holds everyone to the same standards.

 

[Petunia]

The "new man" from both Jew and Gentile is exactly that: new [Eph 2:15]. Interestingly, there are today many converts to Christianity from Judaism who still hold to the Jewish laws and believe that the law is valid for them since they are Jews.
We believe that misses the point of the message in the Church Epistles. What Christ is doing now for Christians is very different than what God did for Jews and Gentiles under the Law. Christians are not to be separated into different congregations, some "messianic Jews" and some "Gentile congregations.”
The Epistles contain directives not to be separate from each other or form distinct groups (1 Cor. 1: 10-13). They reveal that the Levitical requirements were a shadow of the reality which is Christ (Col. 3: 17), and that the Law was done away in Christ. Since the Law was given to Moses, if it was to be done away with, that fact had to be written very clearly, and it was: Christ abolished the Law (Eph. 2:15) and was the end of the Law (Rom. 10: 4). Christians are not under the Law (Rom. 6: 14, 15), are dead to the Law (Rom. 7:5), are released from the Law (Rom. 7: 6; 8: 2) and are not under the supervision of the Law (Gal. 3: 25).

http://www.christan.ru/index.files/Texts_HTML/One_God_One_Lord_1-3.htm

Thank you, Benadam for the link to the book! http://www.christan.ru/index.files/Texts_HTML/One_God_One_Lord_1-3.htm
It’s a real pleasure to read it!


Petunia

 

[Petunia]

@ leeB:

“this book represents a collaboration of many years, several people and much study. A subject this important, and so complicated by tradition and misunderstanding, could hardly be handled by any one person.” (See: One God One Lord Last paragraph of the introduction)

Can you please try again and explain to me in plain English why you think it’s wrong to read and research this book with an open mind, not following it blindly, but carefully examining if it is in line with what the Bible says and learn from it?

It’s impossible for me to do all the research these three men did, why shouldn’t I benefit from it and most importantly: why do you think the Holy Spirit cannot help me discern what I can learn from it?

Thanks,


Petunia

 

[LeeB]

@ leeB:

“this book represents a collaboration of many years, several people and much study. A subject this important, and so complicated by tradition and misunderstanding, could hardly be handled by any one person.” (See: One God One Lord Last paragraph of the introduction)

Can you please try again and explain to me in plain English why you think it’s wrong to read and research this book with an open mind, not following it blindly, but carefully examining if it is in line with what the Bible says and learn from it?

It’s impossible for me to do all the research these three men did, why shouldn’t I benefit from it and most importantly: why do you think the Holy Spirit cannot help me discern what I can learn from it?

Thanks,


Petunia

If you want to read it then do so. I read writings from other groups and as you say with an open mind not following it blindly but if I would happen to “learn” anything it will be because GOD allowed or permitted it, not because of the human author . Look how many read the Bible but obviously do not understand it. Understanding is from GOD. The scriptures scream out this fact. I am not against reading or researching, I am against crediting men with causing others to understand.

If you, Petunia, have GOD reveal some truth to you then you share that truth with others who also have the spirit of GOD it will be the spirit of GOD that will enable them to understand just as how you understood before they did. If you were to share your new truth with carnal people they would not be able to understand. It is always the spirit of GOD that provides the increase as Paul explained. This is our giving all the glory to GOD. The people that wrote this book based their writings on scripture which came from GOD. Are the correct on everything they say ? What they did, I have already done and you have the same opportunity. All people that have access to the Bible have the same opportunity but if any come to enlightenment it will be GOD that enlightens them. This is true of any writing. I do not take credit for what GOD does but many in the false religious community do. They think they are teachers, men of GOD when they are not even converted. Unless GOD builds the house the laborers toil in vain. No one can be viewed as a revealer of truth if that truth must first be revealed to them by GOD. All that we can do is share what GOD reveals not think that it originated in us. Many may be called but few are chosen. Does not the potter have power over the clay ? Every good and perfect gift comes from GOD not men. Many mistakenly think they purchased the gift when it was given to them. This error has produced the lie of elevating men to positions that are not theirs like the governing body or council of elders, ministers, pastors. This amounts to men seeking a following after themselves. This is why there are over 50,000 different churches.
The small group that I fellowship with, when we meet, if one of us has been given a revelation the rest of us listen and the same spirit that gave the revelation to the one will reveal it to the others. As scripture says, they are taught by GOD. In this type of meeting there is no need for a preacher, minister, pastor just as John said, we have no need that any man teach us because the anointing, the Holy Spirit of GOD through Christ teaches us. This type of meeting makes deception impossible but spiritual growth possible. When one understands this then all things become possible.

 

[Petunia]

I agree 100%!

When I started to study with the JW’s, I was very critical. But after some months I lost my critical thinking and accepted everything they said as coming from God.

I trusted them more than I trusted myself.

I thought they had THE truth. In that process I lost myself, but more importantly I didn’t give the honor to God and Christ they deserve (even though I thought I was).

So now I’m checking EVERYTHING with Scripture and I keep checking, asking Gods Spirit to guide me.

 

[LeeB]

I felt the same way in the Worldwide Church of GOD. I had an experience of losing all that I thought was the truth. I prayed to GOD and confessed that I knew nothing and asked that if HE was willing to teach me and I would believe. After that prayer I flipped open my Bible , it opened to Hebrews and I looked down at chapter 11 verse 6 .

Hebrews 11:6 I believed GOD existed but I needed to do a diligent search and in faith believe what GOD would teach me. That was more than 30 years ago and GOD kept HIS word. I have heard a voice in my mind on many occasions speaking to me. This voice guided me to understand the truth about HIS law that I had abused while in the WCG.

I began to fellowship with several others who came out of Worldwide and together we have meetings after the manner Paul described 1 Corinthians 14:29,30,31,32,33,37 Our meetings were not a one man show and no one was leader or teacher because we all knew GOD and Christ were. We met whenever we were able respecting no day as special over another. We would share a meal then have our meeting and study then at the end partake of the bread and wine. We knew there were others like us scattered to the four winds but did not know who or where and they the same with us. That GOD was in total control through Christ over all of us, however many there were , and we all were being taught the same things. We live peaceful and quiet lives keeping ourselves unspotted from the world. Many of the things we have learned from GOD I have written about on this forum. I do this to share what we have learned but not demanding I be believed nor getting angry if not. I cannot teach I cannot lead nor do I desire to. I share in love.

 

[LeeB]

To have others that have had a similar experience and knowledge is a great comfort. Today, October 5, 2024 at 4 pm we are meeting at my home. I was in the WCG for a little over ten years, from 1983 to 1994. It was late 1993 that I and many other members and ministers began to see changes that were made by headquarters in Pasadena California violated the teachings of Herbert W. Armstrong. This is what started a process that eventually culminated in my conversion. I, like you, studied alone for several months after being disfellowshipped for speaking about the things GOD was teaching me. The WCG did give up on legalism but dove headlong into mainstream false Christianity. Today the WCG no longer exists and now they call themselves Grace Communion International. What I find odd here on Simply Christian is the continued bashing of the JW’s by ex members. I have no desire to do something like that. If the blind lead the blind the ditch is their destination. Jesus said leave them alone. I concentrate on my spiritual growth. I realize the hurt and pain as I experienced the same thing but I bear no ill towards any group. It seems almost like revenge to me.

I have 30 years of writings stored away in a trunk in the attic. I have some stored on the computer. I do commit time to prayer, study and meditation. I keep informed of world events. No one in our group participates in the affairs of men, we stay out of being involved but we do have opinions about issues that impact our lives.
I too needed to repent and ask forgiveness for what I thought and did while in the WCG. I have left all that behind, set my hand to the plow and do not look back. Continue your studies Petunia.

 

[Petunia]

Thank you for sharing your encouraging story!

I hope you’ll have a blessed and joyful meeting!

Prov.10:22; Mat.18:20

 

[benadam1974]

Thank you, Benadam for the link to the book! http://www.christan.ru/index.files/Texts_HTML/One_God_One_Lord_1-3.htm
It’s a real pleasure to read it!


Petunia

Sure but beware this is an ultra-dispensationalist group see

And this

 

[LeeB]

Tongues is no longer needed , required or given because the great commission was fulfilled by the Apostles. John 17:20 Is not all you need recorded in scriptures, and when in fellowship with GOD and Christ you are taught? The true organization that is GODS church is scattered to the four winds, not knowing each other and extremely few in number. What you see in the world is Babylon.

 

[Petunia]

Sure but beware this is an ultra-dispensationalist group see

And this

I wasn’t thinking of joining them, Benadam, but thanks for the warning!
I hadn’t seen this videos, I do certainly not agree with them on this!

Did you read the book yourself?

 

[benadam1974]

I wasn’t thinking of joining them, Benadam, but thanks for the warning!
I hadn’t seen this videos, I do certainly not agree with them on this!

Did you read the book yourself?

REV Commentary? Yes, check out these other doozies!
Many things have been added by various teachers or denominations to the simple truth that all a person had to do to be saved was trust in Jesus; that he died, was raised, and is Lord. Some of those wrongly added things include: being water baptized, confessing one’s sins, believing in the Trinity, going to church regularly, not sinning after “getting saved,” and not committing a “mortal” sin.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Genesis/chapter15/6

Jesus did not mention baptism because it was not essential in order to be saved.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/John/chapter3/5

Many theologians do not believe Jesus could have been inaccurate in what he said about the timing of the coming of his kingdom in spite of the fact that many Old Testament prophets had been inaccurate about it…
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Matt/17/2

"There is very good evidence for a pre-tribulation Rapture."
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Daniel/chapter9/27

Also, after the Day of Pentecost when the New Birth became available, salvation was permanent by birth so a person could not lose salvation by becoming caught up in sexual sin.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Prov/2/19/1

Before the Day of Pentecost which started the Christian Church and the Age of Grace, and after the Rapture, a person could sin so badly that he had his name expunged from the Book of Life.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Ezek/13/9/1

In the Church Age, believers are “born again,” which is a one-time event of spiritual birth that assures that they will live forever. However, before the Day of Pentecost, in the Old Testament and Gospels, a person had to maintain their trust in God to be assured of being saved.
https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Ezek/33/12/1

 

[Petunia]

@ Benadam

I actually meant the book you referred to earlier: http://www.christan.ru/index.files/Texts_HTML/One_God_One_Lord_1-3.htm

 

[LeeB]

These ideas originated from a carnal mind totally devoid of the spirit of YAHWEH. NO LIE IS OF THE TRUTH. One lie will break the word of YAHWEH.