General Looking for a sharpener

[Outcast]

1 Cor 3:1-3 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

For me, one thing is as certain as taxes: discussions of the understanding of scripture (in each instance I have seen) will end up as an argument. The basis of recognizing those who are followers of Yeshua is how they love each other. I have yet to see in any internet forum where supposed Christians do not eventually commit verbal attacks. Pride will rear its ugly head, and thus we will prove our lack of love and humility. Please do not assume that I am petitioning for compromise, for that is how Satan corrupts truth. We can disagree without prideful attacks on each other. The solution, in my opinion, is to be truly meek realizing that it will be God who gives the final answer.

I know that there will be someone who is still living according too flesh. We do not have to counter-attack. Let God handle the situation - which require that we should not take the position that it is incumbent on us to resort to "protecting God from evil."

I am looking for views from any of you who may still read a post that I write. I am deeply concerned, and my iron always needs sharpening.

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"Biblical Monotarianism can consider itself to be fully Orthodox despite the protests of the majority of those in Christendom who will vehemently disagree. Trinitarians call us “heretics” while I would respond that Trinitarians are “simply ignorant” of reality. I would not call them heretics. What we see in Christendom is a natural result of Church history and the direction it went.

As for me being labeled a “heretic”? Thankfully, God in His Son alone is our judge, Holy Scripture is our only guide and our ultimate authority, and no individual or council of men of any age has authority to dictate to my conscience otherwise what I see so clearly and plainly in the holy scriptures – well, when one clears away all the man made creeds and traditions."

However, under the principle of Here-a-little-there-a-little, a trinitarian commits the error of polytheism caused by allowing man to dictate doctrine that is counter to scripture. In short, I think it is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Of course, I also think that this blasphemy may not be accurate for most because very few "Christians" actually believe in "The Trinity" and can't even define it. I think that they pretend to believe something just because they are expected to accept it.

One definition of blasphemy is: To blaspheme is to speak with contempt about God or to be defiantly irreverent. Blasphemy is verbal or written reproach of God’s name, character, work, or attributes.

(https://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-blaspheme.html)

We know that Yahweh is spirit - the Holy Spirit.

I think that this error will have terminal consequences. What do you all think?


One definition of blasphemy is: To blaspheme is to speak with contempt about God or to be defiantly irreverent. Blasphemy is verbal or written reproach of God’s name, character, work, or attributes. (https://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-blaspheme.html)

We know that Yahweh is spirit - the Holy Spirit.

I think that this error will have terminal consequences. What do you all think?

 

[LeeB]

There may well be different types of blasphemy. One is the kind that you have correctly defined. The other involves a much more serious consequence. The result of blasphemy committed in ignorance can be forgiven but if committed in knowledge is not. Matthew 12:31 Mark 3:28,29,30 Luke 12:10 1 Timothy 1:13 Paul seems to confirm and agree with Mark 3:28 the key factor in the forgiveness being ignorance.
This type of blasphemy can be forgiven but it would seem the other type, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven , Matthew 12:32 This type of blasphemy is that which is done “with knowledge “ , with a person who has the Holy Spirit as Hebrews 6:4,5,6 Hebrews 10:26,27,29,29 describes a life of someone who has the Holy Spirit but continues a life of sin refusing to repent and as Jesus said, Luke 13:33
Acts 17:30 2 Peter 3:9 It seems that YAHWEH intentionally lets many people remain in their ignorance to protect them from committing this blasphemy that will not be forgiven. There is a veil spread over all nations that can only be lifted but only with the people who are converted, turn to the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:14,15,16,17,18 Given the facts of all YAHWEH has done for the church in giving us HIS son, willing to forgive us of our sins, teach us spiritual truths and in the future cover us in glory; but one of these saints blasphemes HIS agape HE has shown and given to us is the ultimate in spiritual adultery. A person of the church, like the beast and false prophet, who have committed this sin that will not be forgiven, are cast into the lake of fire, the second death which is forever. It would seem that only converted people are able to commit this unpardonable sin. YAHWEH punishes those who did not know their masters will with few stripes but those who did know HIS will with many. Luke 12:47,48 Peter speaks of this too. 2 Peter 2:20,21

 

[Outcast]

There may well be different types of blasphemy. One is the kind that you have correctly defined. The other involves a much more serious consequence. The result of blasphemy committed in ignorance can be forgiven but if committed in knowledge is not. Matthew 12:31 Mark 3:28,29,30 Luke 12:10 1 Timothy 1:13 Paul seems to confirm and agree with Mark 3:28 the key factor in the forgiveness being ignorance.
This type of blasphemy can be forgiven but it would seem the other type, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven , Matthew 12:32 This type of blasphemy is that which is done “with knowledge “ , with a person who has the Holy Spirit as Hebrews 6:4,5,6 Hebrews 10:26,27,29,29 describes a life of someone who has the Holy Spirit but continues a life of sin refusing to repent and as Jesus said, Luke 13:33
Acts 17:30 2 Peter 3:9 It seems that YAHWEH intentionally lets many people remain in their ignorance to protect them from committing this blasphemy that will not be forgiven. There is a veil spread over all nations that can only be lifted but only with the people who are converted, turn to the Lord. 2 Corinthians 3:14,15,16,17,18 Given the facts of all YAHWEH has done for the church in giving us HIS son, willing to forgive us of our sins, teach us spiritual truths and in the future cover us in glory; but one of these saints blasphemes HIS agape HE has shown and given to us is the ultimate in spiritual adultery. A person of the church, like the beast and false prophet, who have committed this sin that will not be forgiven, are cast into the lake of fire, the second death which is forever. It would seem that only converted people are able to commit this unpardonable sin. YAHWEH punishes those who did not know their masters will with few stripes but those who did know HIS will with many. Luke 12:47,48 Peter speaks of this too. 2 Peter 2:20,21

Thank you Lee. I can see the train of your thoughts, but I still have a couple thoughts behind it.

Written almost 2,000 years ago: Acts 17:30-31 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

It's the "but now" that snags my train. Back when this was written, there was no bible. Still, Yahweh said "but now."

If, all the trinitarians are excuse because - even with the resources we now have - it is difficult to see why they are still ignorant. It seems the worst thing we can do is tell them that the trinity is a false doctrine. We should let them remain ignorant so they will not be punished for blasphemy?

If we claim to follow Yeshua and love His God Yahweh, is it expected that they would no remain ignorant with all the resources we have available to us? NOTE: not condemning for I, as well, let myself be "ignorant" for a long time. But - I "knew" the truth in my ignorance.

And that is why I am asking this question of others that may be here.

 

[LeeB]

All people should repent but YAHWEH knows they will not, excepting the small remnant of the 144,000 . The rest of the world has the millennium and second resurrection in which is the age to come Jesus mentioned.
In those days men will still be under warning of this unpardonable sin. When reading Revelation the main problem is that men do not want to repent but those who do live on into the millennium, those who do not will not live again until the second resurrection and then be presented with the hope of salvation. Trinitarians do not have the Holy Spirit. With the spirit comes spiritual wisdom, knowledge and truth so then Trinitarians do not know GOD, Christ, the gospel, or understand what life and death is and the true purpose of the law. Even a babe in Christ knows some of these things therefore it would be a lie to say that Trinitarians have the Holy Spirit. Now a Christian may share with them their inspired knowledge but after the first and second admonition rebuke them, then let them alone as as ditch is in their future. We do not hate Trinitarians but realize GOD is not at this time working with them. Just as with Trinitarians it is with any other group like JW’s WCG, Mormons, and all Protestants and Catholics, just let them alone as Jesus said. Matthew 15:14

 

[LeeB]

YAHWEH did not give Adam and Eve The Holy Spirit nor did HE give them the knowledge of good and evil when HE created them. If HE had Adam would have committed the unpardonable sin when he ate the forbidden fruit as he was not deceived, he knew what he was doing. It would have been the end of humanity at that time in Eden if Adam had sinned willfully or blasphemed the spirit. Instead GOD created both Adam and Eve spiritually neutral and the choice of life or death presented to them in the two trees. This further shows that GOD, even knowing in advance the outcome , yet allowed the man to choose . Adam loved Eve more than GOD as he harkened to her voice and not GODS. Adam loved Eve more than his GOD. This information is not for GOD but for us to teach lessons. That love must be by free will, that we should love no one more than we love GOD. Later we learn by the giving of the law that it is impossible to legislate love, that without GOD we can do nothing and that our only hope was for GOD to provide a messiah with the hope of salvation through him. From the day Adam and Eves acts brought sin into the world humanity has needed to repent. In very ancient times Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham all repented, later Moses, Aaron, Caleb, Joshua, the prophets, King David and many others repented and the earliest of these had no written scripture. The message of repentance began in Eden and continues to today and will extend into the future.

 

[Outcast]

YAHWEH did not give Adam and Eve The Holy Spirit nor did HE give them the knowledge of good and evil when HE created them. If HE had Adam would have committed the unpardonable sin when he ate the forbidden fruit as he was not deceived, he knew what he was doing. It would have been the end of humanity at that time in Eden if Adam had sinned willfully or blasphemed the spirit. Instead GOD created both Adam and Eve spiritually neutral and the choice of life or death presented to them in the two trees. This further shows that GOD, even knowing in advance the outcome , yet allowed the man to choose . Adam loved Eve more than GOD as he harkened to her voice and not GODS. Adam loved Eve more than his GOD. This information is not for GOD but for us to teach lessons. That love must be by free will, that we should love no one more than we love GOD. Later we learn by the giving of the law that it is impossible to legislate love, that without GOD we can do nothing and that our only hope was for GOD to provide a messiah with the hope of salvation through him. From the day Adam and Eves acts brought sin into the world humanity has needed to repent. In very ancient times Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham all repented, later Moses, Aaron, Caleb, Joshua, the prophets, King David and many others repented and the earliest of these had no written scripture. The message of repentance began in Eden and continues to today and will extend into the future.

Brother, I understand what you are saying and I agree, but my question remains.

Acts 17:30-31 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Does it not seem that ignorance of the truth is no longer an excuse - and hasn't be an acceptable excuse for a very long time?

Does it not seem, considering the idea that ignorance being a "valid excuse", letting people remain ignorant is a blessing for them? I realize we cannot know if Yahweh placed a veil on someone, (I'm sure it would like stubbornness to us) or if the person has not yet been blinded and really is just willfully refusing to listen. But I do strongly feel that people refuse to listen which, if accepted, would shatter their social group status.

If we are to agape them, which should we do? Tell them or remain silent?

I am trying to gather possible views to this topic. As with many things which Yahweh gave me to know in His time, I first have to open my mind to possibilities. While your answers are for eventuality, and my question is for "right now."

 

[LeeB]

Man does not and cannot have anything to do with salvation other than to receive the hope of it. GOD and Christ controls everything that has to do with the creation and offering of salvation. Everyone that has ever had the hope of salvation began life as a sinner and true repentance is needed and GOD can grant it. 2 Timothy 2:25 Acts 11:18 Luke 24:46,47 Matthew 9:13 With this information we then see that many have been called to repentance but few are chosen to receive it. This because GOD knows who will truly and sincerely repent and in this current evil age this will be extremely few. GOD will grant repentance to the people in the millennium as all will have the Holy Spirit and the same will be in the second resurrection. A circumcised heart or a broken contrite heart GOD will not despise because this is true and sincere repentance.

Brother, I understand what you are saying and I agree, but my question remains.

Acts 17:30-31 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Does it not seem that ignorance of the truth is no longer an excuse - and hasn't be an acceptable excuse for a very long time?

Does it not seem, considering the idea that ignorance being a "valid excuse", letting people remain ignorant is a blessing for them? I realize we cannot know if Yahweh placed a veil on someone, (I'm sure it would like stubbornness to us) or if the person has not yet been blinded and really is just willfully refusing to listen. But I do strongly feel that people refuse to listen which, if accepted, would shatter their social group status.

If we are to agape them, which should we do? Tell them or remain silent?

I am trying to gather possible views to this topic. As with many things which Yahweh gave me to know in His time, I first have to open my mind to possibilities. While your answers are for eventuality, and judged at the grea.my question is for "right now."

As I understand, the right now is yesterday, today and tomorrow. YAHWEHS method of judgement is uniform and fair across all of time.
The one who knew his masters will but did not do it will be beaten with many stripes, the one who did not know with few. Judgement is on the church, you and I and all the elect prior to the second advent and because the saints do know the masters will we are held to a much higher degree of accountability. People of this world are judged after Christ returns and the veil is on all nations, it is individual people, few, that have the veil lifted.

 

[Outcast]

Scripture speaks about:

1 Timothy 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

1 Corinthians 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Matthew 18:15-17 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

2 Thessalonians 3:15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

1 Timothy 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

I can see that the behavior of the people spoken of may simply those caught in ignorance, right?

Looks like the Apostles felt obligated to deal with the errors.

 

[LeeB]

Man does not and cannot have anything to do with salvation other than to receive the hope of it. GOD and Christ controls everything that has to do with the creation and offering of salvation. Everyone that has ever had the hope of salvation began life as a sinner and true repentance is needed and GOD can grant it. 2 Timothy 2:25 Acts 11:18 Luke 24:46,47 Matthew 9:13 With this information we then see that many have been called to repentance but few are chosen to receive it. This because GOD knows who will truly and sincerely repent and in this current evil age this will be extremely few. GOD will grant repentance to the people in the millennium as all will have the Holy Spirit and the same will be in the second resurrection. A circumcised heart or a broken contrite heart GOD will not despise because this is true and sincere repentance.

As I understand, the right now is yesterday, today and tomorrow. YAHWEHS method of judgement is uniform and fair across all of time.
The one who knew his masters will but did not do it will be beaten with many stripes, the one who did not know with few. Judgement is on the church, you and I and all the elect prior to the second advent and because the saints do know the masters will we are held to a much higher degree of accountability. People of this world are judged after Christ returns and the veil is on all nations, it is individual people, few, that have the veil lifted.

This “times of ignorance” is before Christ returns. Only the elect, the church, the 144,000 over the millennia past, from righteous Able until the elect are sealed , have known the masters will. Over all this time the veil has been over all nations. YAHWEH must make first contact with a person because all people in their carnal state are totally cut off from YAHWEH and blinded. After the return of Christ that veil will be removed and everyone will have the Holy Spirit and no one will say, “do you know the Lord, for all will know me from the least to the greatest.” Until that day comes the veil is only lifted for people YAHWEH intends to make HIS saints. This is not YAHWEH , Acts 10:34 , being a respecter of persons , it is YAHWEH dealing with two different types of people, the converted and the unconverted. Each individual human has their own unique human spirit and YAHWEH knows them all. Because YAHWEH is love HE desires that mercy triumphs over judgment. This happens to all people but at different times. Today is this time of ignorance but tomorrow all will know HIM. Today the church is very few but tomorrow it will be everyone. The same standard and judgment on the church today will upon the church tomorrow. No one will be left unpunished or unrewarded as you said, YAHWEH has appointed a man to judge, that man is now a life giving spirit at the right hand of YAHWEH, today he judges the church, tomorrow he will judge the world. If judgement begins with you and I then where will the ungodly and sinners appear ?
At the final judgment, the great white throne. The elect saints by this time have been glorified and in the kingdom for a thousand years.

 

[Outcast]

This “times of ignorance” is before Christ returns. Only the elect, the church, the 144,000 over the millennia past, from righteous Able until the elect are sealed , have known the masters will. Over all this time the veil has been over all nations. YAHWEH must make first contact with a person because all people in their carnal state are totally cut off from YAHWEH and blinded. After the return of Christ that veil will be removed and everyone will have the Holy Spirit and no one will say, “do you know the Lord, for all will know me from the least to the greatest.” Until that day comes the veil is only lifted for people YAHWEH intends to make HIS saints. This is not YAHWEH , Acts 10:34 , being a respecter of persons , it is YAHWEH dealing with two different types of people, the converted and the unconverted. Each individual human has their own unique human spirit and YAHWEH knows them all. Because YAHWEH is love HE desires that mercy triumphs over judgment. This happens to all people but at different times. Today is this time of ignorance but tomorrow all will know HIM. Today the church is very few but tomorrow it will be everyone. The same standard and judgment on the church today will upon the church tomorrow. No one will be left unpunished or unrewarded as you said, YAHWEH has appointed a man to judge, that man is now a life giving spirit at the right hand of YAHWEH, today he judges the church, tomorrow he will judge the world. If judgement begins with you and I then where will the ungodly and sinners appear ?
At the final judgment, the great white throne. The elect saints by this time have been glorified and in the kingdom for a thousand years.

And this touches my point. Why did Matthew and Paul speak of correcting the errors and ignorance of others if it is not up to the converted to so so. Do not those verses I included not speak of correcting those within the ecclesia?

 

[LeeB]

Scripture speaks about:

1 Timothy 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Romans 16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

1 Corinthians 5:5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Matthew 18:15-17 “If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, even if anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.

2 Thessalonians 3:15 Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

1 Timothy 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

I can see that the behavior of the people spoken of may simply those caught in ignorance, right?

Looks like the Apostles felt obligated to deal with the errors.

All these scriptures are church related. The Apostles only had authority over the church but none in the world. The key verse is 1 Corinthians 5:5 as all punishment was for hope that the sinner repent, so his spirit can be saved .

 

[Outcast]

All these scriptures are church related. The Apostles only had authority over the church but none in the world. The key verse is 1 Corinthians 5:5 as all punishment was for hope that the sinner repent, so his spirit can be saved .

And it is the people who claim Christ of which I am speaking.

 

[LeeB]

And this touches my point. Why did Matthew and Paul speak of correcting the errors and ignorance of others if it is not up to the converted to so so. Do not those verses I included not speak of correcting those within the ecclesia?

You and I should alway be ready to give an answer “to anyone who asks” for the hope we have. 1 Peter 3:15 Colossians 4:6 On this forum we do that but very few ask. Matthew 24:14 gives the preaching of the true gospel as the last sign before the return of Christ. Matthew 24:14 How could this be a sign if the true gospel had been preached all along ? This to me is a strong indicator that we, the elect saints, are not to try to fulfill the great commission as worldly churches do. When you consider that the gospel recorded in scripture yet speaks to the elect but not the world, it is as if these Apostles continue to speak even though dead. As Jesus said, John 17:20 You and I are still learning through their word being interpreted by the spirit through Christ to us. The world does not have this. They are, 2 Timothy 3:7 1 Corinthians 2:14 Ephesians 4:18

 

[LeeB]

Brother, I understand what you are saying and I agree, but my question remains.

Acts 17:30-31 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Does it not seem that ignorance of the truth is no longer an excuse - and hasn't be an acceptable excuse for a very long time?

Does it not seem, considering the idea that ignorance being a "valid excuse", letting people remain ignorant is a blessing for them? I realize we cannot know if Yahweh placed a veil on someone, (I'm sure it would like stubbornness to us) or if the person has not yet been blinded and really is just willfully refusing to listen. But I do strongly feel that people refuse to listen which, if accepted, would shatter their social group status.

If we are to agape them, which should we do? Tell them or remain silent?

I am trying to gather possible views to this topic. As with many things which Yahweh gave me to know in His time, I first have to open my mind to possibilities. While your answers are for eventuality, and my question is for "right now."

YAHWEH deliberately hides the truth from the world but not HIS church.
Trinitarians believe in a three person god because YAHWEH permits, allows , Satan to blind the eyes of the unconverted, 2 Corinthians 4:4 In this YAHWEH actually uses Satan as a tool to accomplish HIS will. 1 Kings 22:20,21,22,23 is an interesting account of YAHWEH using a lying spirit. So then HE uses Satan in similar manner. Why would YAHWEH do this ? 2 Peter 3:9 Ezekiel 18:23 This connects to what Paul said, Romans 9:16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24 YAHWEH has shown mercy on you and I but condemns the world so that later we can have a part to play when YAHWEH does set HIS hand to save the world. Romans 11:30,31,32 As mentioned before this mercy happens in stages at different times.

 

[Outcast]

Thank you for putting up with my attempt to get participation in scriptural discussions. I am leaning toward the conclusion that only milk is desired here. But, other than the c&p pair, there is silence.