Video John 17:5 | Glory before

[Lori Jane]

Bible Q | Please explain John 17:5 “glory that I had with you before the world existed.”

bibleq.net

And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed (John 17:5 )

This verse is part of much longer prayer of Jesus from the night of the Last Supper. His prayer covers a range of topics, including both his immediate disciples and future generations of disciples. In the preceding verse Jesus says that he has glorified his Father upon the earth by doing the work that God gave him to do (John 17:4 ). He is now asking God to glorify him in his presence, that is in heaven after the ascension.

What is difficult or controversial about this verse is that it says Jesus had glory with his Father before the world existed. This is taken to imply that Jesus existed before the world and had a personal relationship with God before the world. In turn, this implication is taken as a proof that Jesus is God.

Before seeking to understand what Jesus is saying, first let us look at what Jesus does not say. Firstly, Jesus does not say “I am God” in this verse or anywhere in this prayer. He does address his Father as “the only true God” and does not include himself in that description (John 17:3 ). So whatever else Jesus is saying, he believes in one God and considers that one God to be someone other than himself. Secondly, it is interesting that Jesus does not say “I am now going to claim the glory owed to me” or “I am now going to reclaim the glory I once had”. Rather, Jesus prayers to his Father “glorify me”. This is not the prayer of God to God; God does not need to request glory. Elsewhere Jesus makes this clear when he says that his glory is given to him from God:

Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ (John 8:54 )

If Jesus is not claiming to God, is he claiming to have had a personal relationship with God before the world began? To understand what Jesus is saying, we need to understand what the Bible means when it talks about things before the world began. Consider these verses:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him (Eph 1:3-4 )

He [Jesus] was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you (1 Pet 1:20 )

Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain (Rev 13:7-8 )

According to the Bible, believers were chosen before the world began and their names were written the book of life before the world began. This does not mean believers existed before the world or had a personal relationship with God before the world, but that the foreknowledge of God is not bound by time; God already knows the end from the beginning. In the same way, Peter says that Jesus was foreknown before the world but revealed at a specific moment in time. To understand John 17:5 , we need understand that something may exist in the foreknowledge whilst not yet existing in actuality.

Later in his prayer Jesus explains why he was glorified. He says “… my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24 ). Jesus was glorified with God because he was loved by God. That Jesus was loved by God “before the foundation of the world” is not surprising, since Paul says it was “in love” that God chose believers before the world began (Eph 1:4 ).

It is useful to compare what the Bible says about Jesus with what the Bible says about believers. For example:

But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory (1 Cor 2:7 )

In one sense, then, believers were glorified before the world began because God had already decreed that wisdom by which believers would be glorified. But in saying that believers were glorified in this way before the world began does not mean in any sense that believers actually existed before the world began.

So recap, Jesus was foreknown by God (1 Pet 1:20 ) and because he was foreknown he was fore-loved. Jesus was fore-glorified by God because he was fore-loved (John 17:24 ). When Jesus says “glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed” (John 17:5 ), he is asking that when he ascends into heaven he might receive in actuality that glory that existed in the foreknowledge of God before the world began.

 

[Lori Jane]

Some videos of some of my favorite people explaining John 17:5

"John 17:5 - The Glory Jesus Had" - by Bill Schlegel

What was the glory that Jesus had "before the foundation of the world?" Bill Schlegel tells his audience at Higher Ground Church in Tennessee that the glory Christ had with the Father was his place of unparalleled honor in the eternal plan of God. That glory came into literal reality after God raised him from the dead, took him up into heaven and seated him at his own right hand. Bill Schlegel taught Bible history, geography and Hebrew in Israel for over three decades. He is the author of the Satellite Bible Atlas. Through Bible study, Bill came to the understanding that the LORD is one, and that Jesus is the LORD’s human Messiah. Bill podcasts at One God Report. His blog is https://landandbible.blogspot.com/. He is married to Stephanie. They currently live in Tennessee with the two youngest of their five children.

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John 17:5 - Translation​

From Bro. Kel at Trinity Delusion
Extensive Article: The Trinity Delusion: John 17:5 (angelfire.com)

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John 17:5 (Pt 1) "glory I had with you"?? - Anthony Buzzard & J. Dan Gill​

Bible -- Verse -- Commentary. John17:5. Anthony Buzzard and J. Dan Gill consider Jn. 17:5 & related verses. These Video Commentaries are an easy way to better understand scriptures. For other commentaries go to 21st Century Reformation http://www.21stcr.org/commentary.html. This video reflects on: What is Truth? "One God" believers around the world teach that traditional views about God as found in the Doctrine of the Trinity & in Oneness (UPCI), Apostolic, Arian & Mormon perspectives are inaccurate according to the Bible: that the truth about the One true God, faith & the gospel is not rightly reflected in any of those traditional doctrines. One God believers teach that all of those positions represent variations on Christian tradition rather than Biblical truth. You will find One God people preaching that: Yahweh is One & only One (Deut. 6:4) and that Jesus is the Christ (John 17:3) God's only begotten human son born of the virgin Mary. One God believers challenge Christianity to choose either truth or tradition about God. Dr. Anthony Buzzard is a recognized authority in Theology and particularly Christology. J. Dan Gill is Chief Editor of 21st Century Reformation Online.

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Does John 17:5 Prove a Trinity?​

• John 17:5
• Luke 11:50
• Eph 1:1-4
• 2 Tim 1:9
• Heb 4:3
• Rev 13:8 had glory "in the plan"
• 1 Pet 1:19-21

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John 17:5: "The glory I had with you" explained​

17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father when* a voice such as this was brought to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

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[J P paarent]

John 17:5 a verse often used to try to prove the preexistence of Yeshua, but the way this verse is treated does not consider the full context of this prayer and is thus shortsighted. All shortsighted views of the bible always give a false impression. It is exactly the same here, the problem is in the reading of this verse in which many do not see that they have a problem with their respective reading. Let's look at this verse closely to see what it is really saying.

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I HAD with you BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED. (ESV2011)

As we read Yeshua's words we see that he is asking the father to glorify him, with the glory that he HAD with the father BEFORE the world was or existed. With this being said it clear that Yeshua has just set a time frame in which he had that glory, it was BEFORE the world was.


So where did it go when the world was created, how did he lose his glory after the creation? It is clearly stated by Yeshua that he HAD the glory BEFORE the creation or the world existed or was, this statement automatically removes him from being the creator, as he lost the glory BEFORE the creation.


The truth is this verse is speaking in Hebrew terms, which trinitarians do not seem to understand. The glory he had with the father BEFORE the world was, is the glory of the messiah in the plan of the creation and we will prove this and also show why he was asking for this glory and what this glory was for, further in the text. The messiah was always in the creation of Yehovah, the messiah was the reason Yehovah created all. This by no means places Yeshua before the creation with God, then you would have to say he lost his glory before the creation began. So then what glory did he lose?

John 17:4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. (ESV2011)
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV2011)

He tells us the what glory he had Before the creation in verse 4, it is the glory for " having accomplished the work that you gave me to do." it is the glory for having completed the work of the messiah, for spreading the word of the kingdom and going to the cross and saving us. Yeshua did not literally die BEFORE the creation, but he was foreknown.

Rev 13:8 And all who live on the earth will worship him, [everyone whose] name has not been written in the book of life of THE LAMB THAT HAS BEEN SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. (REV)

1Pet 1:19 but WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD OF MESSIAH, as of A LAMB unblemished and spotless, (TS98)
1Pet 1:20 FOREKNOWN, INDEED, BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but manifested in these last times for your sakes, (TS98)

It is impossible that he was glorified BEFORE the world was and not have this glory after the world was created, but he himself tells us it is the glory he had before the creation but not after, so it cannot be the glory for the creation, he lost it when the world was created. It just does not make any sense that he had a glory, and we do not know what for, why did he have this glory? Well there is no reason to have a glory BEFORE the world was, except what he told us in his prayer, it was the glory of the messiah, the glory for " having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.", this is the only reason.

But if you still want to say this was some kind of glory of God, then you will be hard pressed to explain that the glory he was given he is now giving to the apostles, how could he give the apostles the glory of God? Well he can't therefore the glory being spoken of is not that he had before the creation in any literal sense


John 17:22 THE GLORY THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN ME I HAVE GIVEN TO THEM, that they may be one even as we are one, (ESV2011)

So the glory he is giving them is the glory of spreading and dying for the word of God, in the same way Yeshua spread and died for the word this would also happen to the apostles, so Yeshua is giving this glory that the father gave him, to the apostles that they also may have the glory for spreading and dying for the word of Yehovah.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “IF I GLORIFY MYSELF, MY GLORY IS NOTHING. IT IS MY FATHER WHO GLORIFIES ME, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ (ESV2011)

Yeshua himself tells us that he has no glory of himself, and if he does glorify himself it is NOTHING, it is the father who glorifies him.

The fact that Yeshua does not glorify himself is all the contrary of the father, Yehovah.

Isa 43:7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I CREATED FOR MY GLORY, WHOM I FORMED AND MADE.” (ESV2011)

Yehovah created us for his glory, this is the glory of Yehovah, Yehovah's glory is of being our creator but this glory is not Yeshua's, as he clearly tells us he lost his glory before the creation began.

Num 14:22 SURELY ALL THOSE MEN THAT HAVE SEEN MY GLORY, AND MY SIGNS, WHICH I WROUGHT IN EGYPT AND IN THE WILDERNESS, yet have put Me to proof these ten times, and have not hearkened to My voice; (Tanakh-1917)

All men have seen his glory and his signs, Yehovah is and always will be Glorious. Yeshua on the other hand is glorified by the Father Yehovah. By going to the cross as our savior, and now is in turn Glorified by the father having accomplished this, the mission he was sent for.

It is clear in John 17:4 that Yeshua has glorified the father by going to the cross as the father's messiah and is now asking for the glory that was reserved, before the creation of the world for the one who would be Messiah.

John 17:4 I GLORIFIED YOU ON EARTH, HAVING ACCOMPLISHED THE WORK THAT YOU GAVE ME TO DO. (ESV2011)

It is clear this verse has nothing to do with preexistence, Yeshua does not say that at all.

 

[Lori Jane]

Jesus' Pre-existing Glory: An Examination of John 17:5 - One God Worship

We examine John 17:5 to understand what it means that Jesus possessed a pre-existing glory.

onegodworship.com

 

[LeeB]

The word “I had” in John 17:5 is G2192 Strongs. It is spelled “ECW” and pronounced “eKho”. It means “to hold” , “to hold fast keep” . So this verse could be rendered, “ and now, oh Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory that was kept on hold with thee before the world was.” This glory was in prophecy promised to messiah after completion of his work Which verse 4 explains. Luke 24:25-26 , John 13:31-32 . If Jesus needed glorified how could he be GOD if the trinity states the three are eternally coequal ?