General Jesus before the cross.

[benadam1974]

Under the Old Covenant Law (Torah) Moses allowed a certificate of divorce (Deut. 24.1-4) but Jesus, years before the cross, says: "Now I tell you..." Matthew 19

• God commanded no work at all for any reason on the Sabbath (Deut. 5.13-15; Num. 15.32-36) but Jesus and his Apostles are “always at work” before the cross (John 5.17-19). As a matter of fact they break the Sabbath yet are "innocent" (Mat 12:1-6).
• God commanded capital punishment (Deut. 22.22) but Jesus offers mercy instead (John 7).
• God commanded “an eye for an eye” (Lev. 24.20) but Jesus says “love your enemies” (Mat 5.38-39). And this prohibition against lethal self-defense (Ex 22.2) is to be practiced before the cross as well (Luke 6.28-29; Mat 26.52).
• God demanded a “vow,” “oath” to Him (Ex 22:10-11; Num. 30.3) but Jesus before the cross says “don’t make any vows" (Mat 5.33-36).
• God commanded fasting (Lev 16:29; Num. 29:7-11) but Jesus commands his Apostles not to fast at all while he’s with them, before the cross (Mark 2.18-22; Mat 9.14-17).
• God prohibited eating certain foods but Jesus, before the cross, says food doesn’t make you unclean and unfit to worship God. Hence, "Jesus declared all foods clean." (Mar 7.15, 19)

So, to say that the New Covenant began only at or after the cross implies that Jesus and his Apostles did not practice what they preached.

 

[Bvenski]

If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account. Exo 22:2

Question: Are you possibly suggesting that Exo 22:2 is now sin under the new covenant?

I wouldn't do that.

Paul would say: "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be!", per Romans 7:7.

 

[benadam1974]

If the thief is caught while breaking in and is struck so that he dies, there will be no bloodguiltiness on his account. Exo 22:2

Question: Are you possibly suggesting that Exo 22:2 is now sin under the new covenant?

I wouldn't do that.

Paul would say: "What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be!", per Romans 7:7.

How do you love your enemy by killing them?

 

[Bvenski]

Answering a question, with a question, is not answering. Please answer my question, and then I will answer yours.

 

[benadam1974]

Answering a question, with a question, is not answering. Please answer my question, and then I will answer yours.

Of course it is, look to Jesus who uses this technique time and again.
So please take time to prayerfully think about the question.
Thanks.

 

[Bvenski]

Of course it is, look to Jesus who uses this technique time and again.
So please take time to prayerfully think about the question.
Thanks.

Alright, ya got me on answering my question with a question. I had just woken up when I saw your response/question and was a bit groggy. Personally, I think you are being a little evasive, but that's ok.

You shall not murder. That's pretty cut and dry. Don't even have thoughts of anger to murder, don't say Raca or call someone a fool with the utmost contempt & hatred. Got it.

Jesus says resist not evil, and then he gives examples, all in a Jewish context which I'm confident that you are aware of and I won't go into detail here: get slapped/insulted turn cheek & don't stab to death the perpetrator; give both articles of clothing to who is suing you & don't murder him w/ a rock; go 2 miles w/ the Roman USPS carrier & don't slay him & take his wallet. Totally get all that.

Where is the verse when the lord Jesus says let your enemy murder innocent children & adults in front of you and then let him murder you too?

Further down in Matt 5?

Love your enemies. Ok, how do I do that? When they curse me I am to bless them & not murder them. Got it.

When they hate me then I am to do good to them. Got it.

Pray for them who mistreat me, harass & persecute me. Got it.

Again, since we are answering questions w/ questions, where is the verse when the lord Jesus says let your enemy murder innocent children & adults in front of you and then let him murder you too?

 

[benadam1974]

Alright, ya got me on answering my question with a question. I had just woken up when I saw your response/question and was a bit groggy. Personally, I think you are being a little evasive, but that's ok.

You shall not murder. That's pretty cut and dry. Don't even have thoughts of anger to murder, don't say Raca or call someone a fool with the utmost contempt & hatred. Got it.

Jesus says resist not evil, and then he gives examples, all in a Jewish context which I'm confident that you are aware of and I won't go into detail here: get slapped/insulted turn cheek & don't stab to death the perpetrator; give both articles of clothing to who is suing you & don't murder him w/ a rock; go 2 miles w/ the Roman USPS carrier & don't slay him & take his wallet. Totally get all that.

Where is the verse when the lord Jesus says let your enemy murder innocent children & adults in front of you and then let him murder you too?

Further down in Matt 5?

Love your enemies. Ok, how do I do that? When they curse me I am to bless them & not murder them. Got it.

When they hate me then I am to do good to them. Got it.

Pray for them who mistreat me, harass & persecute me. Got it.

Again, since we are answering questions w/ questions, where is the verse when the lord Jesus says let your enemy murder innocent children & adults in front of you and then let him murder you too?

You're throwing all kinds of things on the wall bro.
So let's keep it simple.
You asked whether or not Old Covenant laws like Ex 22.2 are now "sin under the new covenant."
I asked how are we loving our enemy if we kill them, as per Ex 22.2.
The answer should be self-explanatory.

If you're really interested on this topic please check out our YouTube channel Pacifist playlist as well as christenemylove.com

Peace.

 

[Bvenski]

You're throwing all kinds of things on the wall bro.
So let's keep it simple.
You asked whether or not Old Covenant laws like Ex 22.2 are now "sin under the new covenant."
I asked how are we loving our enemy if we kill them, as per Ex 22.2.
The answer should be self-explanatory.

If you're really interested on this topic please check out our YouTube channel Pacifist playlist as well as christenemylove.com

Peace.

Asking 2 questions is throwing all kinds of things on the wall? Come on Carlos, that's silly.

 

[benadam1974]

Asking 2 questions is throwing all kinds of things on the wall? Come on Carlos, that's silly.

 

[Bvenski]

This response is comparing apples and oranges.

Exo 20:8-11, it was considered sin to not keep the Sabbath.

(NOTE: the exemptions for king David & his buddies, as well as the priests in the temple, were noted by Jesus)

If a Jew did not keep the Sabbath under the Law of Moses, then he was sinning.

If a converted Jew or Gentile, under the Law of Christ, does not keep the Sabbath, they are not sinning.

There was a change, an update.

The Sabbath command under the Law of Moses is not sin, per Paul in Romans 7:7. May the Law of Moses never be sin, is what Paul said.

That makes sense, because the Law of Moses was ultimately given by the God.

Do you really believe that what came from the God is sin? Really?

Paul understood that the new Law, the Law of Christ, was an updated Law.

Here is where you are running into problems:

Exo 20:8-11 = if broken under the Law of Moses, then you are committing sin.

Exo 20:8-11 = under the law of Christ, you are not committing sin by breaking the Sabbath, aka updated

Exo 22:2 = you are not committing sin by killing a thief who has broken into your house at night *** this was never, ever a sin under the Law of Moses = NOT SIN ***

You are claiming that Exo 22:2 is sin under the Law of Christ, which means you are claiming that the Law of Moses (part of it), that was given by the God, is sin.

Paul said may it never be.

Think about it.

Since you believe that there is no exception to use lethal self-defense to fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives and your houses, then you better tear your eye out and throw it from you, the next time your right eye makes you sin.

And you better cut off your right hand and throw it from you, then next time your right hand makes you sin.

And when our risen lord Jesus returns bodily, he is going to gut, kill and slaughter his enemies. Are you planning on accusing Jesus of violating Matt 5:44, at that time?

When Jesus returns, if he asks you to bring his enemies to him and slay (greek: to kill off) them in his presence, per Luke 19:27, are you going to defy him and tell him no, because this killing violates loving your enemies?

Per Rev 19:19, the beast, the kings of the earth & their armies will gather together to make war (OFFENSIVELY) against him (Jesus) who sits on the horse, and against his army. You do realize that Jesus will use LETHAL SELF-DEFENSE to gut human beings into an enormous pile of dead flesh, don't you? Will you tell Jesus at that time that what he is doing is sin? Will you accuse Jesus of not loving his enemies? Will you, Carlos?

 

[benadam1974]

This response is comparing apples and oranges.

Exo 20:8-11, it was considered sin to not keep the Sabbath.

(NOTE: the exemptions for king David & his buddies, as well as the priests in the temple, were noted by Jesus)

If a Jew did not keep the Sabbath under the Law of Moses, then he was sinning.

If a converted Jew or Gentile, under the Law of Christ, does not keep the Sabbath, they are not sinning.

There was a change, an update.

The Sabbath command under the Law of Moses is not sin, per Paul in Romans 7:7. May the Law of Moses never be sin, is what Paul said.

That makes sense, because the Law of Moses was ultimately given by the God.

Do you really believe that what came from the God is sin? Really?

Paul understood that the new Law, the Law of Christ, was an updated Law.

Here is where you are running into problems:

Exo 20:8-11 = if broken under the Law of Moses, then you are committing sin.

Exo 20:8-11 = under the law of Christ, you are not committing sin by breaking the Sabbath, aka updated

Exo 22:2 = you are not committing sin by killing a thief who has broken into your house at night *** this was never, ever a sin under the Law of Moses = NOT SIN ***

You are claiming that Exo 22:2 is sin under the Law of Christ, which means you are claiming that the Law of Moses (part of it), that was given by the God, is sin.

Paul said may it never be.

Think about it.

Since you believe that there is no exception to use lethal self-defense to fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives and your houses, then you better tear your eye out and throw it from you, the next time your right eye makes you sin.

And you better cut off your right hand and throw it from you, then next time your right hand makes you sin.

And when our risen lord Jesus returns bodily, he is going to gut, kill and slaughter his enemies. Are you planning on accusing Jesus of violating Matt 5:44, at that time?

When Jesus returns, if he asks you to bring his enemies to him and slay (greek: to kill off) them in his presence, per Luke 19:27, are you going to defy him and tell him no, because this killing violates loving your enemies?

Per Rev 19:19, the beast, the kings of the earth & their armies will gathered together to make war (OFFENSIVELY) against him (Jesus) who sits on the horse, and against his army. You do realize that Jesus will use LETHAL SELF-DEFENSE to gut human beings into an enormous pile of dead flesh, don't you? Will you tell Jesus at that time that what he is doing is sin? Will you accuse Jesus of not loving his enemies? Will you, Carlos?

Yes I will do whatever King Jesus orders me to do at the resurrection.

 

[Bvenski]

Yes I will do whatever King Jesus orders me to do at the resurrection.

I would hope so.

And please, do not pluck out your eye or cut your hand off.

 

[LeeB]

Godly love is the fulfillment of the law. These are the two great commandments of love God and neighbor. This is how Jesus lived and actually fulfilled the law, it is how we fulfill the law, not by the works or a written code, Ten Commandments, but with Godly love (agape). The law was given because it is the knowledge of good and evil written down by Gods angel and Moses. It is what Adam chose for us so God gave the law. The law is holy, just and good, that is the Ten Commandments , but we are unholy, unjust and evil and this is why there are none righteous, no not one and that all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. The tables of stone with the commandments were kept inside the ark of the covenant but the book of the law of Moses, which contained the shadow works, were kept in a sleeve on the exterior of the ark. All of the priests had their own copy of the book of Moses as the kings of Israel were to also have. All of these things were only a shadow of the things Jesus would make reality.