General I love this quote about the trouble with religion.

Paolo

New member
Oct 10, 2020
14
22
3
“It is customary to blame secular science and anti-religious philosophy for the eclipse of religion in modern society. It would be more honest to blame religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, dull, oppressive, insipid. When faith is completely replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit; when the crisis of today is ignored because of the splendor of the past; when faith becomes an heirloom rather than a living fountain; when religion speaks only in the name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion--its message becomes meaningless.”


Abraham Joshua Heschel, God in Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
Jude 1:3-4 what began as pure was high jacked by the ungodly. The pure was reduced to an infinitely small remnant and the ungodly growing into a great church. So then what was pure remains pure and what is ungodly is seen as Christianity.
 

Kaironaut

Member
Feb 14, 2023
118
24
18
39
Texas
To be fair, the New Testament prophecies foretell that the disrupters will come from their own number - not outsiders. Acts 20:29-30

29 [†] I r know that after my departure t fierce wolves will come in among you, u not sparing the flock; 30 and v from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
 

Kaironaut

Member
Feb 14, 2023
118
24
18
39
Texas
This fact calls into question why churches worry way more about outsiders, when most of the trouble springs from within.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
A combination of both in a sense. Those who crept in could have been of either sort but the result was the same.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
To be fair, the New Testament prophecies foretell that the disrupters will come from their own number - not outsiders. Acts 20:29-30

29 [†] I r know that after my departure t fierce wolves will come in among you, u not sparing the flock; 30 and v from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them.
1 John 2:19 Acts 15:24 Galatians 2:4 It went both ways
 

Kaironaut

Member
Feb 14, 2023
118
24
18
39
Texas
1 John 2:19 Acts 15:24 Galatians 2:4 It went both ways
When Moses was out in the wilderness, while all of them were ex-Egyptians in a sense, the opposition were still Israelite. While it does occur from without and within, we can still agree where the schism really occurs more of the time. There is a reason why God says the sins of Israel exceed that of Sodom and Samaria.
 

William

William Kuevogah
Staff member
Jul 28, 2020
56
36
18
27
Ghana
“It is customary to blame secular science and anti-religious philosophy for the eclipse of religion in modern society. It would be more honest to blame religion for its own defeats. Religion declined not because it was refuted, but because it became irrelevant, dull, oppressive, insipid. When faith is completely replaced by creed, worship by discipline, love by habit; when the crisis of today is ignored because of the splendor of the past; when faith becomes an heirloom rather than a living fountain; when religion speaks only in the name of authority rather than with the voice of compassion--its message becomes meaningless.”


Abraham Joshua Heschel, God in Search of Man: A Philosophy of Judaism
I couldn't agree more! It'll take several pages more to unpack the implications of that quote.
Indeed, no one has ever been able to refute religion; to be human is to be religious (homo religiosus). The religious feeling, the sense of the divine, the experience of transcendence, is universal; there has never been a society in the history of our species that has not given expression to some form of religion.
It's inevitable that religion is institutionalised—and that's when the troubles start. Religious traditions—scriptures, creeds, rituals, etc.—are necessary to preserve the memory of religious experiences; but over time, if we lose sight of the purpose they're meant to serve, they can become irrelevant.
Think of religious traditions and institutions as a finger pointing to the moon, to use an old Buddhist dictum. If you fix your gaze on the finger rather than on what the finger is pointing to, you miss all that heavenly glory. Similarly, religion loses its power when we forget what it points to (the infinite God, and how we should live) and instead give more attention to those things—creed, discipline, authority, whether that of scripture (Protestantism), of tradition (Orthodoxy) or of magisterium (Catholicism)—which are supposed to be aids to the religious life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kaironaut

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
In most if not all churches if a guest or member challenges the doctrine or authority they will be excommunicated. I was disfellowshipped from the Worldwide Church of God that also had placed the writings of those who disagreed into the category of dissident literature. So they were able to silence those in and outside of their fellowship. The Catholic Church went as far as to forbid reading the Bible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kaironaut

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
When Moses was out in the wilderness, while all of them were ex-Egyptians in a sense, the opposition were still Israelite. While it does occur from without and within, we can still agree where the schism really occurs more of the time. There is a reason why God says the sins of Israel exceed that of Sodom and Samaria.
Israel was at that time God's chosen people under the old covenant and held to a higher degree of judgment. Jesus said, the servant who knew his masters will but did not do it shall be beaten with many stripes but the servant who did not know beaten with few. This is why the harlots receives a double portion of God's wrath.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kaironaut

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
The church that emerged in the second century AD is thought by millions to have been the spiritual outgrowth of the church of God. This universal church had no serious challengers until Martin Luther and it reigned supreme for 1300 years. However when comparing the teachings of this church with scripture it should be clear that serious differences existed. This in part was what gave birth to the reformation.
All of this is evidence that this universal church was not the spiritual successor to the Christian church. The true church yet existed as a very small remnant which became invisible to the world because everything the world viewed as the church is not the church. God has always had a remnant of His people even to this day. The problem is that many churches claim to be the remnant. This cannot be true because they are visible. I hope you realize that I am not saying that the true church is invisible in the sense of not being corporeal but of totally going unnoticed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kaironaut