General How much did the formation of the Messiah depend on time, place and environment?

Aristid

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Dec 31, 2023
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Hello, dear brothers and sisters! I used to imagine Jesus as a Superman who only enriched humanity with divine gifts, but did not take anything from humanity himself. A few years ago, I read the book "he Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound." This book turned my mind upside down. If I used to imagine Jesus as an incarnate angel, now I consider him the best of people. Thank you very much for this wonderful work. After reading the book, I began to respect Christ even more. And not only him, but humanity as a whole.

I realized that we have a great dignity - to choose the path leading to perfection ourselves and follow it to the end. If Jesus had been a God or an angel, he would not have been an ideal example of perfection for us. I think about it a lot. Let me ask you a question. In the Epistle to the Galatians, the Apostle Paul said that God sent the Messiah into the world when the fullness of time came.

It is usually understood that by the first century, humanity had reached the state of mind and heart when the coming of the Messiah would be most fruitful. Pagans became disillusioned with their dead religion, philosophers realized the limitations of the human mind and the need for higher wisdom.

Politics was also in crisis, wars were raging everywhere. Figuratively speaking, people needed an "alien from outer space". Yes, the Greeks united the world by launching the Hellenization process. And the Romans created a powerful network of convenient roads and brought relative order to the empire. All this contributed to the rapid spread of the Gospel.

It's all wonderful. But is one important point not overlooked: in the 1st century, the fullness of time came not only for the whole world, but also for the Messiah himself? Would Jesus have been able to achieve perfection and maintain absolute purity in the time of Seth, Noah, Moses or David? We don't know.

It is clear from the Gospel that God was concerned about the moral and spiritual condition of his Son. It was not for nothing that he entrusted the care of him to the best of people - Mary and Joseph. Would Jesus have become the Messiah if he had been born into a vicious family where he was taught to love iniquity and hate righteousness?

Jesus was the son of his time. By the time he was born, it became obvious how much people needed God. At that time, history was already ancient, gray-haired and very bloody. Jesus absorbed not only the wisdom from above and the wisdom of books. He combined them with the practical experience of history. And for him, all of God's truths mattered not only as theoretical calculations.

In the prophecy about Solomon, God told David that the Messiah could sin. This means that God took some risks by trusting Jesus, as in the case of Adam and Eve. Therefore, the Creator did everything possible to give Jesus a better upbringing.

It turns out that Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Mary, Joseph and many other righteous people also participated in the formation of the personality of Christ and they are co-workers with God in this matter. And we should thank them, as well as Jesus, for the gift of redemption and eternal life.

In my opinion, this is how Paul's words can be understood that the Law of Moses was a guide to Christ: only a society living according to righteous norms for centuries could have given birth to Christ. Could he have appeared in any other society, even with the support of God? Jesus, like any of us, absorbed the best that the society of his day could give him.

In this regard, I have another question. Do you think if Jesus and Adam had switched places, could it be that Jesus would have eaten the forbidden fruit after listening to Eve, and Adam would have become our redeemer? There is an opinion that anyone would have sinned if they were in Adam's place. When all the terrible consequences of sin were only a promise from God, but not an objective reality. And if Adam had had the environment, upbringing, and knowledge of Jesus, he might well have become the Messiah.

If you have such an opportunity, please write what do you think about it? For me, this is important in order to better understand God's concern for us and man's place in God's eternal plan.

P. S.: I do not want to belittle the merits of Christ in the least. I am trying to better understand the role of man in God's plan.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
Hello, dear brothers and sisters! I used to imagine Jesus as a Superman who only enriched humanity with divine gifts, but did not take anything from humanity himself. A few years ago, I read the book "he Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound." This book turned my mind upside down. If I used to imagine Jesus as an incarnate angel, now I consider him the best of people. Thank you very much for this wonderful work. After reading the book, I began to respect Christ even more. And not only him, but humanity as a whole.

I realized that we have a great dignity - to choose the path leading to perfection ourselves and follow it to the end. If Jesus had been a God or an angel, he would not have been an ideal example of perfection for us. I think about it a lot. Let me ask you a question. In the Epistle to the Galatians, the Apostle Paul said that God sent the Messiah into the world when the fullness of time came.

It is usually understood that by the first century, humanity had reached the state of mind and heart when the coming of the Messiah would be most fruitful. Pagans became disillusioned with their dead religion, philosophers realized the limitations of the human mind and the need for higher wisdom.

Politics was also in crisis, wars were raging everywhere. Figuratively speaking, people needed an "alien from outer space". Yes, the Greeks united the world by launching the Hellenization process. And the Romans created a powerful network of convenient roads and brought relative order to the empire. All this contributed to the rapid spread of the Gospel.

It's all wonderful. But is one important point not overlooked: in the 1st century, the fullness of time came not only for the whole world, but also for the Messiah himself? Would Jesus have been able to achieve perfection and maintain absolute purity in the time of Seth, Noah, Moses or David? We don't know.

It is clear from the Gospel that God was concerned about the moral and spiritual condition of his Son. It was not for nothing that he entrusted the care of him to the best of people - Mary and Joseph. Would Jesus have become the Messiah if he had been born into a vicious family where he was taught to love iniquity and hate righteousness?

Jesus was the son of his time. By the time he was born, it became obvious how much people needed God. At that time, history was already ancient, gray-haired and very bloody. Jesus absorbed not only the wisdom from above and the wisdom of books. He combined them with the practical experience of history. And for him, all of God's truths mattered not only as theoretical calculations.

In the prophecy about Solomon, God told David that the Messiah could sin. This means that God took some risks by trusting Jesus, as in the case of Adam and Eve. Therefore, the Creator did everything possible to give Jesus a better upbringing.

It turns out that Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Mary, Joseph and many other righteous people also participated in the formation of the personality of Christ and they are co-workers with God in this matter. And we should thank them, as well as Jesus, for the gift of redemption and eternal life.

In my opinion, this is how Paul's words can be understood that the Law of Moses was a guide to Christ: only a society living according to righteous norms for centuries could have given birth to Christ. Could he have appeared in any other society, even with the support of God? Jesus, like any of us, absorbed the best that the society of his day could give him.

In this regard, I have another question. Do you think if Jesus and Adam had switched places, could it be that Jesus would have eaten the forbidden fruit after listening to Eve, and Adam would have become our redeemer? There is an opinion that anyone would have sinned if they were in Adam's place. When all the terrible consequences of sin were only a promise from God, but not an objective reality. And if Adam had had the environment, upbringing, and knowledge of Jesus, he might well have become the Messiah.

If you have such an opportunity, please write what do you think about it? For me, this is important in order to better understand God's concern for us and man's place in God's eternal plan.

P. S.: I do not want to belittle the merits of Christ in the least. I am trying to better understand the role of man in God's plan.
I see that you very curious and searching for answers, that is good. You have read a book about Jesus. Now I ask you to read the posts here on Simply Christian.
 

Aristid

New member
Dec 31, 2023
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Thank you. Yes, there are very interesting discussions here.
I see that you very curious and searching for answers, that is good. You have read a book about Jesus. Now I ask you to read the posts here on Simply Christian.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
Thank you. Yes, there are very interesting discussions here.
One thing that I take exception to is the idea that Jesus was a potential sinner. I have posted several articles here that go into detail using scripture to show this idea is a great error. I would encourage you to read them.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
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Aristid. Have you ever thought about why there was a virgin birth ? About how could a potential sinner be sitting at GODS right hand ?
And if we must be transformed to be in Christs image then how could Christ have been exactly like us in every way ? What about Jesus having no mediator but Jesus must be our mediator. All of the prophets who spoke about the future messiah all told us of the success of the messiah, not one ever said the messiah was a potential sinner.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
Hello, dear brothers and sisters! I used to imagine Jesus as a Superman who only enriched humanity with divine gifts, but did not take anything from humanity himself. A few years ago, I read the book "he Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound." This book turned my mind upside down. If I used to imagine Jesus as an incarnate angel, now I consider him the best of people. Thank you very much for this wonderful work. After reading the book, I began to respect Christ even more. And not only him, but humanity as a whole.

I realized that we have a great dignity - to choose the path leading to perfection ourselves and follow it to the end. If Jesus had been a God or an angel, he would not have been an ideal example of perfection for us. I think about it a lot. Let me ask you a question. In the Epistle to the Galatians, the Apostle Paul said that God sent the Messiah into the world when the fullness of time came.

It is usually understood that by the first century, humanity had reached the state of mind and heart when the coming of the Messiah would be most fruitful. Pagans became disillusioned with their dead religion, philosophers realized the limitations of the human mind and the need for higher wisdom.

Politics was also in crisis, wars were raging everywhere. Figuratively speaking, people needed an "alien from outer space". Yes, the Greeks united the world by launching the Hellenization process. And the Romans created a powerful network of convenient roads and brought relative order to the empire. All this contributed to the rapid spread of the Gospel.

It's all wonderful. But is one important point not overlooked: in the 1st century, the fullness of time came not only for the whole world, but also for the Messiah himself? Would Jesus have been able to achieve perfection and maintain absolute purity in the time of Seth, Noah, Moses or David? We don't know.

It is clear from the Gospel that God was concerned about the moral and spiritual condition of his Son. It was not for nothing that he entrusted the care of him to the best of people - Mary and Joseph. Would Jesus have become the Messiah if he had been born into a vicious family where he was taught to love iniquity and hate righteousness?

Jesus was the son of his time. By the time he was born, it became obvious how much people needed God. At that time, history was already ancient, gray-haired and very bloody. Jesus absorbed not only the wisdom from above and the wisdom of books. He combined them with the practical experience of history. And for him, all of God's truths mattered not only as theoretical calculations.

In the prophecy about Solomon, God told David that the Messiah could sin. This means that God took some risks by trusting Jesus, as in the case of Adam and Eve. Therefore, the Creator did everything possible to give Jesus a better upbringing.

It turns out that Abel, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Mary, Joseph and many other righteous people also participated in the formation of the personality of Christ and they are co-workers with God in this matter. And we should thank them, as well as Jesus, for the gift of redemption and eternal life.

In my opinion, this is how Paul's words can be understood that the Law of Moses was a guide to Christ: only a society living according to righteous norms for centuries could have given birth to Christ. Could he have appeared in any other society, even with the support of God? Jesus, like any of us, absorbed the best that the society of his day could give him.

In this regard, I have another question. Do you think if Jesus and Adam had switched places, could it be that Jesus would have eaten the forbidden fruit after listening to Eve, and Adam would have become our redeemer? There is an opinion that anyone would have sinned if they were in Adam's place. When all the terrible consequences of sin were only a promise from God, but not an objective reality. And if Adam had had the environment, upbringing, and knowledge of Jesus, he might well have become the Messiah.

If you have such an opportunity, please write what do you think about it? For me, this is important in order to better understand God's concern for us and man's place in God's eternal plan.

P. S.: I do not want to belittle the merits of Christ in the least. I am trying to better understand the role of man in God's plan.
GOD had to create a messiah. This because no human was righteous, no, not one. GOD created Jesus as righteous as HIMSELF. GOD did not gamble with human salvation. The law did not produce righteousness else Jesus died for nothing. When you consider the attributes of GOD nothing is to difficult, nothing is impossible. What Jesus was is what we need to become in order to be in the kingdom of GOD. We should not bring Jesus down to our level but realize we must rise to his.
 

Aristid

New member
Dec 31, 2023
12
1
3
One thing that I take exception to is the idea that Jesus was a potential sinner. I have posted several articles here that go into detail using scripture to show this idea is a great error. I would encourage you to read them.
Thanks for your comment. I don't want to downplay the spirituality of Jesus Christ in the least. I also have great respect for his way of life on Earth. When I said that Christ could have sinned, I was guided by this passage in the Bible: "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men (1 Samuel 7:12-14).

A similar example is found in Psalm 2:7: "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee". David was clearly talking about himself, but the author of Hebrews 1:5 applies these words to Jesus.

Also I believe there is a significant difference between sinlessness and perfection. A sinless state is like pure pottery clay, from which you can mold a wonderful vessel, but you can also disfigure it. And perfection is a ready-made vessel that has passed the firing stage. It is already impossible to redo it.

Perfection is a state of irreversible righteousness. I believe that the angels, Adam, Eve and Jesus were not perfect on the day they were born. They had to decide whether they wanted to become perfect as God or not. If Jesus were perfect, it would be pointless to test him in the desert. The perfect do not need to learn obedience to God's law. And Jesus studied. The Scriptures speak of his perfection as a process, and not as a state that he reached instantly at the moment of conception or birth. Jesus became perfect only when he went through trials: " Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrew 5:8,9).
 

Aristid

New member
Dec 31, 2023
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3
GOD had to create a messiah. This because no human was righteous, no, not one. GOD created Jesus as righteous as HIMSELF. GOD did not gamble with human salvation. The law did not produce righteousness else Jesus died for nothing. When you consider the attributes of GOD nothing is to difficult, nothing is impossible. What Jesus was is what we need to become in order to be in the kingdom of GOD. We should not bring Jesus down to our level but realize we must rise to his.
I am not belittling Jesus to our level. I just wanted to say that Christ needed a righteous society as much as we need him. That's my guess. And he was born sinless only because God wanted him to be. The Holy Spirit has removed all the negative consequences of sin from the genetics of Christ. If it were not for this action of God, Jesus would have been born the same as us. And if God had willed, any of us would have been born just as sinless. Another question is whether we would have become perfect. But I'm sure many would. For me, Jesus is the greatest role model. But I understand that he did not become so unique by himself. Without God, he couldn't have done anything. This is his great gift to us - to show us what an infirm person who fully trusts in God can achieve.
 

LeeB

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Dec 3, 2022
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Matthew 5:48 Jesus was perfect, as perfect as his GOD. Jesus told us we had to be as perfect as GOD but if he was not then what would that say. It is 2 Samuel 7:12-14 is speaking about Solomon, not Jesus, read the whole chapter. Hebrews 1:3 is testifying to us of the purity of Christ being equal to the FATHER. The Passover lamb was a shadow of Christ, it had to be perfect. How was Jesus the image of the invisible GOD ? All the prophets said Jesus would be successful in his missions and never gave any doubt of it, if prophecy is a sure word then we need to heed it. Study very closely Hebrews 1:3, look up the key words in Strongs concordance .
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
Thanks for your comment. I don't want to downplay the spirituality of Jesus Christ in the least. I also have great respect for his way of life on Earth. When I said that Christ could have sinned, I was guided by this passage in the Bible: "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men (1 Samuel 7:12-14).

A similar example is found in Psalm 2:7: "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee". David was clearly talking about himself, but the author of Hebrews 1:5 applies these words to Jesus.

Also I believe there is a significant difference between sinlessness and perfection. A sinless state is like pure pottery clay, from which you can mold a wonderful vessel, but you can also disfigure it. And perfection is a ready-made vessel that has passed the firing stage. It is already impossible to redo it.

Perfection is a state of irreversible righteousness. I believe that the angels, Adam, Eve and Jesus were not perfect on the day they were born. They had to decide whether they wanted to become perfect as God or not. If Jesus were perfect, it would be pointless to test him in the desert. The perfect do not need to learn obedience to God's law. And Jesus studied. The Scriptures speak of his perfection as a process, and not as a state that he reached instantly at the moment of conception or birth. Jesus became perfect only when he went through trials: " Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrew 5:8,9).
The words “being made perfect “ look up Strongs article 5048 . It means bringing to an end, to complete, having finished the work his FATHER gave him. Jesus said on the cross, “it is finished” Strongs article 5055 which has the same meaning as 5048 . This scripture is not saying Christ was not perfect since his mothers womb and had to grow to become perfect, but that he finished his work, it was ended, accomplished or completed.
 

LeeB

Well-known member
Dec 3, 2022
1,652
671
113
Thanks for your comment. I don't want to downplay the spirituality of Jesus Christ in the least. I also have great respect for his way of life on Earth. When I said that Christ could have sinned, I was guided by this passage in the Bible: "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men (1 Samuel 7:12-14).

A similar example is found in Psalm 2:7: "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee". David was clearly talking about himself, but the author of Hebrews 1:5 applies these words to Jesus.

Also I believe there is a significant difference between sinlessness and perfection. A sinless state is like pure pottery clay, from which you can mold a wonderful vessel, but you can also disfigure it. And perfection is a ready-made vessel that has passed the firing stage. It is already impossible to redo it.

Perfection is a state of irreversible righteousness. I believe that the angels, Adam, Eve and Jesus were not perfect on the day they were born. They had to decide whether they wanted to become perfect as God or not. If Jesus were perfect, it would be pointless to test him in the desert. The perfect do not need to learn obedience to God's law. And Jesus studied. The Scriptures speak of his perfection as a process, and not as a state that he reached instantly at the moment of conception or birth. Jesus became perfect only when he went through trials: " Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Hebrew 5:8,9).
Jesus was perfect while in his mothers womb. Psalm 22:10 Do you know of any other man that lived 33 years and never sinned ? We are told to let this mind of Jesus be in us, a mind that was perfect, a mind incapable of sin and a mind of GODS love that is incapable of sin because GODS love is the fulfillment of the law. Peter tells us that we have the hope, a precious promise, that we someday will have the divine nature of GOD. Jesus was born with this divine nature we hope to yet receive and this is what made Jesus the image of the invisible GOD. 2 Peter 1:4 Jesus was the revealing of GODS nature to us for if you see him you have seen the FATHER. Jesus is our example, not the one described in that book you read, but in the scripture.