General Comment re: Beroean Pickets, Eric Wilson
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That was a good rebuttal by Anthony. I will note, though, that there are 3 possible interpretations of John 8:58:
1. Jesus was referring to himself as the Messiah, foreknown in God's plan before the foundations of the world.
2. God was directly speaking to those Jews through Jesus, because God put his words in Jesus's mouth.
3. Jesus is referring to the first resurrection, because he was going to be the firstborn out of the dead and Abraham has not yet been born out of the dead.
Any of those explanations are far superior than believing Jesus claimed to be the God in John 8:58.
1. Jesus was referring to himself as the Messiah, foreknown in God's plan before the foundations of the world.
2. God was directly speaking to those Jews through Jesus, because God put his words in Jesus's mouth.
3. Jesus is referring to the first resurrection, because he was going to be the firstborn out of the dead and Abraham has not yet been born out of the dead.
Any of those explanations are far superior than believing Jesus claimed to be the God in John 8:58.
Or simply read the context which has Jesus trying, once again, to convince his own brethren that he’s a) The promised Messiah, Son of God (vv. 54-55) and b) The King of the coming Messianic ”day” (v.56)!
John 8:54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory means nothing. The One who glorifies Me is My Father, of whom you say ‘He is our God.’ 55You do not know Him, but I know Him. If I said I did not know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word.
56Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.”
**He that is of God heareth God's words**: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. John 8:47
Jesus answered, **If I honour myself, my honour is nothing**: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: John 8:54
Jesus said unto them, **Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.** John 8:58
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, **and will put my words in his mouth**; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto **my words which he shall speak in my name**, I will require it of him. Deut 18:19
2 is a possibility.
Believe in whichever one you are most comfortable with. Its not like I'm going to condemn you or anything for believing in 1.
Anthony believes 3 is a possibility. That's cool. No worries.
Jesus answered, **If I honour myself, my honour is nothing**: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: John 8:54
Jesus said unto them, **Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.** John 8:58
I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, **and will put my words in his mouth**; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto **my words which he shall speak in my name**, I will require it of him. Deut 18:19
2 is a possibility.
Believe in whichever one you are most comfortable with. Its not like I'm going to condemn you or anything for believing in 1.
Anthony believes 3 is a possibility. That's cool. No worries.
From the One God, the Father, One Man Messiah Translation, 2nd Ed:
Note 117 on John 8:58-
That is, the Messiah planned in God's great design for humanity. The "I am [he] " of John 4:26 retains the meaning John assigned to it at its first occurrence --- "I am the Messiah." It is also possible to translate the Greek, "Before Abraham comes to be [in the resurrection] I am already alive." Thus Jesus proved his superiority to Abraham by alone being resurrected on the third day. Abraham will rise from death at the future resurrection when Jesus returns (1 Cor. 15:23) (Buzzard, 266)
☝ There it be. Anthony believes the 1 or 3 interpretations are possible.
Check out that Greek word πρὶν, translated as "before", and the other 12 occurances of it in the NT. This is strong evidence for 3.
Also, Brother Kel has made a couple of videos on John 8:58, and he made another one recently. I'll post it for you in a minute.
Note 117 on John 8:58-
That is, the Messiah planned in God's great design for humanity. The "I am [he] " of John 4:26 retains the meaning John assigned to it at its first occurrence --- "I am the Messiah." It is also possible to translate the Greek, "Before Abraham comes to be [in the resurrection] I am already alive." Thus Jesus proved his superiority to Abraham by alone being resurrected on the third day. Abraham will rise from death at the future resurrection when Jesus returns (1 Cor. 15:23) (Buzzard, 266)
☝ There it be. Anthony believes the 1 or 3 interpretations are possible.
Check out that Greek word πρὶν, translated as "before", and the other 12 occurances of it in the NT. This is strong evidence for 3.
Also, Brother Kel has made a couple of videos on John 8:58, and he made another one recently. I'll post it for you in a minute.
Sure, I can see that from John 8:56.
This verse can also mean that Abraham, even though he did not physically see Jesus, he did see that the promised Messiah would be born in the future, preach, God would do miracles through him, salvation, etc., to include that he would see the Messiah when he & others are raised from the dead at the first resurrection.
So, what is your point?
This verse can also mean that Abraham, even though he did not physically see Jesus, he did see that the promised Messiah would be born in the future, preach, God would do miracles through him, salvation, etc., to include that he would see the Messiah when he & others are raised from the dead at the first resurrection.
So, what is your point?
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What context? You said "The resurrection is the day of Christ. (John 8:56)." A bit vague, if I may say so.
Have you told Anthony that he may be incorrect on the 3 interpretation?
Or that he must only believe in the 1 interpretation?
Or are you down with 1 & 3, but 2 must be denounced as a possible interpretation?
Have you told Anthony that he may be incorrect on the 3 interpretation?
Or that he must only believe in the 1 interpretation?
Or are you down with 1 & 3, but 2 must be denounced as a possible interpretation?
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If you are implying that I did not read your earlier post, well, that's silly.
John 8:58 is one of those verses that can be understood in more than one way.
It just is.
I mean come on, its almost been approx 2,000 years since the Gospel of John was written, and here we are today, with different, possible interpretations concerning just a single verse.
Don't fall into the trap of becoming too dogmatic, my friend.
You can with some things, such as the Shema is the greatest commandment; God is not a trinity; Jesus is not god the son wearing a Jew suit of flesh; abortion is sin; pre-marital sex is sin; drunkenness is sin; repentance & water baptism is necessary, etc.
John 8:58 is one of those verses that can be understood in more than one way.
It just is.
I mean come on, its almost been approx 2,000 years since the Gospel of John was written, and here we are today, with different, possible interpretations concerning just a single verse.
Don't fall into the trap of becoming too dogmatic, my friend.
You can with some things, such as the Shema is the greatest commandment; God is not a trinity; Jesus is not god the son wearing a Jew suit of flesh; abortion is sin; pre-marital sex is sin; drunkenness is sin; repentance & water baptism is necessary, etc.
Agreed. Pre-millennial, post-trib, for Matt 24.
I don't know where you are going with this.
