General Predestination.

[Shelley]

I never dealt with this subject yet. Likewise is hell a real place of torment. Interesting view point.

https://trinities.org/blog/podcast-79-dr-john-piper-not-everyone-elect

 

[Lori Jane]

Great topic Shelley!

Here is a copy and paste from show notes to that podcast episode.

If all and only people whom God eternally and unconditionally chooses are saved, then why aren’t all people saved? In a recent episode of Dr. John Piper’s Ask Pastor John podcast, (#547 – If God Is So Happy, Why Did He Create the Non-Elect?), a listener wrote in with this question. In this episode of the trinities podcast, I interact with Dr. Piper’s answer, which focuses on Romans 9:22-23

With a little help from the LogicBot 2000, I evaluate a few of his arguments.

Then I discuss competing, valid arguments that any Christian must choose between:

Argument 1

G: God never does any action which is intrinsically wrong.
E: God unilaterally caused someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree was able to do other than she actually does.
Therefore,
not-W: It is not the case that it is intrinsically wrong to unilaterally cause someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree is able to do other than she actually does.

Argument 2

G: God never does any action which is intrinsically wrong.
W: It is intrinsically wrong to unilaterally cause someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree is able to do other than she actually does.
Therefore,
not-E: It is not the case that God unilaterally caused someone to suffer eternally who at no time and to no degree was able to do other than she actually does.

Though both arguments are valid, it can’t be that both are sound – one must have a false premise. But is it W or E? I take it that Dr. Piper would endorse Argument 1. I discuss some exegetical reasons to doubt his premise E. If we have more reason to believe W than we have to believe E, then we should be persuaded by Argument 2. Clearly, though, the issue requires a full look at Paul’s doctrine of predestination.

You can also listen to this episode on Stitcher or iTunes (please subscribe, rate, and review us in either or both – directions here). It is also available on Youtube (scroll down – you can subscribe here). If you would like to upload audio feedback for possible inclusion in a future episode of this podcast, put the audio file here.

Links for this episode:

• validity and soundness explained
• trinities podcast episodes relevant to Jesus’s “I am[he]” statements
  • podcast 61 – Dr. Dustin Smith on preexistence in ancient Jewish thought
  • podcast 62 – Dr. Dustin Smith on the preexistence of Jesus in the gospel of John
  • podcast 63 – Thomas Belsham and other scholars on John 8:58
  • podcast 66 – Before Abraham was… what?
• Rethinking Hell (podcast)
  
• Edward Fudge
  • interview
  • “The Fire That Consumes: A Biblical and Historical Study of Hell“
  • “Rethinking Hell“
• Exodus 9
• Theologian Dr. Jack Cottrell.
  • The Grace of God and the Will of Man, edited by Clark H. Pinnock, which contains Dr. Cottrell’s “The Nature of Divine Sovereignty.”

 

[Kaironaut]

By the way, this may interest you regarding God’s penalty: https://www.worldslastchance.com/winds-of-doctrine/hell-a-twisted-truth-unraveled.html

 

[LeeB]

The unpardonable sin proves that not all people will be saved. The idea that God makes us do evil and then punishes us for it ultra evil. This would make God the author of sin and His own worst enemy in what His own will is and eliminates the free will of people . On the other hand if universal salvation is true it would eliminate the need for Christ. Both beast and false prophet are cast into the second death, the lake of fire along with Gog and Magog later on. Hebrews tells us that there is no sacrifice for forgiveness for the one who commits the unpardonable sin. Hebrews 10:26. James 1:13 removes all doubt of God tempting people to sin. God is not interested in quantity but quality as the unrighteous shall not enter the kingdom of God. This man is attempting to show Gods judgment as being unfair but it is his view that is unfair. God is not mocked, whatever a man sows that shall he also reap.

 

[Kaironaut]

Predestination does not necessarily imply determinism. God promises to change his mind and the course of events provided we change ours. I believe the future is open insofar as His(God’s) plans are not thwarted. He is willing to have his plans frustrated and even bent, but not altogether cancelled or brought to no effect - From what I gather, anyway. At a smaller scale, Hezekiah would have died sooner had he not prayed and asked for help in his terminal illness.

 

[LeeB]

Before God created anything, in His awesome mind He foresaw every detail from the least to the greatest, absolutely everything. When He was ready He spoke and it was done. Albert Einstein said, God created time so that everything didn’t happen at once. For God everything did happen at once but to us it seems to play out over time. Eternity is Gods stomping ground, He inhabits it with all His awesomeness. I submit that God has no plan B .

 

[Kaironaut]

At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it (vv. 7–10). Jeremiah 18

 

[Kaironaut]

I used to believe impassibility as an attribute of God, from classical theism, and Plato. If indeterminacy is a true attribute of objects other than God, then the future is open so long as any object retains it. Now of every single detail is already settled in the mind of God, it is pointless for God to imagine possibilities and even suggest it to His creation namely man in this case - and even solemnly promise it. But from the series of verses I have read thus far, God seems to impart that his will will flex for His creation, with exception of absolute events that he has settled beforehand like the Messiah, redemption, the day of Judgement etc. Not that all futures are open, but some futures remain as possibilities for God has promised it to those who listen to Him. If i were given a choice, between, say, Vanilla or Chocolate ice cream, I typically would chose vanilla, but I could choose chocolate another time. I know it’s only two, but it remains a meaningful choice. Now if I always chose vanilla intransigently, in spite of the presence of chocolate, that looks like the “rest in your laurels” scenario. I’m not sure if that can be called freedom or indeterminacy on my end. Is indeterminacy a defect/bug that God must fix, or an excellence/feature that God has graciously given?

 

[LeeB]

Should we compare the most high to His physical creation ? God said, Isaiah 55:8-9 When the highest being of all communicates with a much lower being the higher must do so in a way the lower being can relate to.
Psalm 145:3 1 Chronicles 29:11 Jeremiah 32:17 King David has this to say, Psalm 139:1-24. The choices we make in this life are ours to make, it is just that God in eternity has known them all. I do not think God is ever worried , afraid, surprised or unsure and we know His agape is not do not yet have answersin our nature unless He adds a portion. Here we are are, you and I, attempting to analyze God to find out what makes Him tick. We can’t even grasp those things He has revealed about Himself. Humanity does not even understand humanity. Even Jesus Christ did not know his God and Father in complete totality because in order to do that you would have to be God also. These are thought provoking questions that do not yet have answers. In the kingdom when we live forever, our existence will continually be filled with new and amazing understandings of this great God we love and it will never stop.

 

[LeeB]

Predestination does not necessarily imply determinism. God promises to change his mind and the course of events provided we change ours. I believe the future is open insofar as His(God’s) plans are not thwarted. He is willing to have his plans frustrated and even bent, but not altogether cancelled or brought to no effect - From what I gather, anyway. At a smaller scale, Hezekiah would have died sooner had he not prayed and asked for help in his terminal illness.

Omniscience is the state of knowing everything, even if you negotiate with humans you would yet know the end of the matter without interference in the humans decision and therefore God is able to predetermine the outcome without eliminating human free will.

 

[Kaironaut]

I do not deny the greatness of God. I do not deny his omniscience. But what is the future that God knows? Is it exactly one outcome that does not change, or is it a sea of possibilities that can shift until settled? If the future is ontologically flexible, God is at liberty to reveal it to us. If it is not, also is at liberty to reveal it to us. This is not about the Ontology of God per se, but the Ontology of His Creation or in this case, the ontology of the future. If God has built Time to have a flexible future, that’s how it goes. If not, it will only go One way. If the Cosmos is flexible, indeterminate interactions are possible. If not, then not. Even if the future is uncertain, does God have a reason to worry? Does not God have veto power in case that creation goes against His way? We both acknowledge that God is sovereign/above man and even the cosmos. Is it so out-of-character for Him to allow things? You yourself say that God has 2 wills. He settles some things Himself, and allows other things to be settled by others. Is that not comparing Him to his creation? By the way, is such a comparison an affront, at all?

 

[LeeB]

God has a will for humanity. God wills to have other beings “similar “ to Himself, not exactly, but similar. These other beings would share in the inexpressible joy of what God has always been in eternity. The express image, the brightness of His glory is how Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus who was an image of the invisible God. God knew that His creation of humanity would not produce a being of this caliber so God had to make one. This was the Christ the image of God and then we are to be recreated to be in the image of Christ. God knew Adam would sin in eternity yet that did not keep Him from creating Adam and presenting to Adam a choice of two trees. This was a test for Adam that God already knew Adam would fail. When God created the angels He knew in eternity that Lucifer would lead a rebellion against him with a third of His angels. Yet God created the angels anyway. It would seem that everything God created went all wrong from their beginning. Yet God created them anyway, why ? The only being that can exist that can be like God would be a being that God would truly, intentionally, purposefully and willfully create. The history of Lucifer and Adam proves this. Would God then destroy the first creation of humanity or would He use this new image of Himself as a means to save them and transform them into the image of Himself that He created ?

 

[LeeB]

I do not deny the greatness of God. I do not deny his omniscience. But what is the future that God knows? Is it exactly one outcome that does not change, or is it a sea of possibilities that can shift until settled? If the future is ontologically flexible, God is at liberty to reveal it to us. If it is not, also is at liberty to reveal it to us. This is not about the Ontology of God per se, but the Ontology of His Creation or in this case, the ontology of the future. If God has built Time to have a flexible future, that’s how it goes. If not, it will only go One way. If the Cosmos is flexible, indeterminate interactions are possible. If not, then not. Even if the future is uncertain, does God have a reason to worry? Does not God have veto power in case that creation goes against His way? We both acknowledge that God is sovereign/above man and even the cosmos. Is it so out-of-character for Him to allow things? You yourself say that God has 2 wills. He settles some things Himself, and allows other things to be settled by others. Is that not comparing Him to his creation? By the way, is such a comparison an affront, at all?

If things do not happen as the prophets declared then all the prophets are false prophets. God has assigned a specific time for certain events to happen which He has not shared with us or even Jesus. There is absolutely no doubt they will happen. We do have free will, we make choices, it is that God has known what they are in eternity. The indirect will of God allows us to make our own choices but in no way prevents God from knowing in advance what they will be. King David said that God knew what his words would be before David could even form a sentence. The saints have their names written in a book of life from the foundation of the world 2 Timothy 1:9 , Peter said the same about Jesus, 1 Peter 1:20
To know the details and specifics of how God can do what He does is beyond human ken.

 

[LeeB]

I do not deny the greatness of God. I do not deny his omniscience. But what is the future that God knows? Is it exactly one outcome that does not change, or is it a sea of possibilities that can shift until settled? If the future is ontologically flexible, God is at liberty to reveal it to us. If it is not, also is at liberty to reveal it to us. This is not about the Ontology of God per se, but the Ontology of His Creation or in this case, the ontology of the future. If God has built Time to have a flexible future, that’s how it goes. If not, it will only go One way. If the Cosmos is flexible, indeterminate interactions are possible. If not, then not. Even if the future is uncertain, does God have a reason to worry? Does not God have veto power in case that creation goes against His way? We both acknowledge that God is sovereign/above man and even the cosmos. Is it so out-of-character for Him to allow things? You yourself say that God has 2 wills. He settles some things Himself, and allows other things to be settled by others. Is that not comparing Him to his creation? By the way, is such a comparison an affront, at all?

Gods will for you, me and all humanity has always been one outcome for if there was another way, a better way to achieve His will God would have done it. Our hope of being in Gods kingdom is secure in our knowing that God is able to perform in what He has promised. God is the ultimate perfectionist and always does what is good and best and has the power to do it. He says , I am God and I change not. There is one outcome, His will for humanity. This is the entire reason for the physical creation, to give it to His first born son who then shares it with those who come after him.

 

[Kaironaut]

God has a will for humanity. God wills to have other beings “similar “ to Himself, not exactly, but similar. These other beings would share in the inexpressible joy of what God has always been in eternity. The express image, the brightness of His glory is how Hebrews 1:3 describes Jesus who was an image of the invisible God. God knew that His creation of humanity would not produce a being of this caliber so God had to make one. This was the Christ the image of God and then we are to be recreated to be in the image of Christ. God knew Adam would sin in eternity yet that did not keep Him from creating Adam and presenting to Adam a choice of two trees. This was a test for Adam that God already knew Adam would fail. When God created the angels He knew in eternity that Lucifer would lead a rebellion against him with a third of His angels. Yet God created the angels anyway. It would seem that everything God created went all wrong from their beginning. Yet God created them anyway, why ? The only being that can exist that can be like God would be a being that God would truly, intentionally, purposefully and willfully create. The history of Lucifer and Adam proves this. Would God then destroy the first creation of humanity or would He use this new image of Himself as a means to save them and transform them into the image of Himself that He created ?

That assumes that God was not reasonable to expect something good enough from the predecessors. Or perhaps God did not fully intend to create them, or was rather uncommitted in the process?

 

[LeeB]

When it comes to the philosophy of men it Is wise to take heed to the words of Paul, Colossians 2:8 We should not follow the ideas or traditions of men, the rudiments of this world called by Paul vain deceit. I do not trust any man, brother Kel, Anthony Buzzard or anyone else, I trust Christ and his God. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 Even a line in Shakespeare from Hamlet Act 1 Scene 5 , Hamlet cautioned his friend about philosophy.

That assumes that God was not reasonable to expect something good enough from the predecessors. Or perhaps God did not fully intend to create them, or was rather uncommitted in the process?

I think it shows that there is no one or no thing that can defeat God's will. With God all things are possible. Job 42:2 Isaiah 14:27 Psalm 33:10-11 Proverbs 21:30 Proverbs 19:21 Isaiah 46:10

 

[Kaironaut]

If things do not happen as the prophets declared then all the prophets are false prophets. God has assigned a specific time for certain events to happen which He has not shared with us or even Jesus. There is absolutely no doubt they will happen. We do have free will, we make choices, it is that God has known what they are in eternity. The indirect will of God allows us to make our own choices but in no way prevents God from knowing in advance what they will be. King David said that God knew what his words would be before David could even form a sentence. The saints have their names written in a book of life from the foundation of the world 2 Timothy 1:9 , Peter said the same about Jesus, 1 Peter 1:20
To know the details and specifics of how God can do what He does is beyond human ken.

Do cancelled prophecies automatically imply falsehood? If I remember correctly Nineveh’s prophesied overturning was averted/relented BECAUSE they repented. So did God initially intend that or not? I however agree that many specifics cannot be known by man, but I think we refer to generalities more in the subject of Open Theism. On the subject of False Prophets, they are also allowed by God, to speak true descriptions, of both present and future, but does that make them True since they speak truth at that moment? (Deuteronomy 13:1-3). How about “pray that your flight may not be on the Sabbath or winter”? Now if every single detail of Future History is settled by God entirely beforehand, unilaterally, without recourse to His creatures, what is the point of saying that God has 2 wills? Wouldn’t that make what He does/approves and allows/tolerates absolutely identical?

 

[LeeB]

Free will in humanity is essential for God's purpose for us. Love must be by free will.. Would you want to be forced against your will to marry someone you did not love ? What you mentioned in the book of Jonah is to teach us about repentance and show God is fair and righteous in judgment. God teaches at times through actual people and events. I have said that God first give the test followed by the lesson. If God only had one will then humans would not have free will. This is what that fellow in Roman's 9:19-24 did not understand. Satan chose to rebel, Adam chose to disobey and humanity chooses to sin. The two trees were a choice, the law had a choice and grace has a choice. God will not force anyone to love and obey Him because even Jesus said. If you love me you will obey me. I do not know or have answers to everything, I can only know things God reveals and there are things God will not reveal. Deuteronomy 29:29 Acts 1:7 On those secret things, that we have been discussing here, we will just have to have faith that God knows what He is doing. After all, we know how things end, God's will is done.

 

[Kaironaut]

When it comes to the philosophy of men it Is wise to take heed to the words of Paul, Colossians 2:8 We should not follow the ideas or traditions of men, the rudiments of this world called by Paul vain deceit. I do not trust any man, brother Kel, Anthony Buzzard or anyone else, I trust Christ and his God. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 Even a line in Shakespeare from Hamlet Act 1 Scene 5 , Hamlet cautioned his friend about philosophy.

I think it shows that there is no one or no thing that can defeat God's will. With God all things are possible. Job 42:2 Isaiah 14:27 Psalm 33:10-11 Proverbs 21:30 Proverbs 19:21 Isaiah 46:10

I agree, but does it not mean that we can still wrestle with Him? I do not contest His indomitable will or inevitable victory. Now is it merely the philosophy of men? I don’t trust Buzzard or Brother Kel that much either. But the questions remain. If If the future is absolutely settled, either his plan or will, why bother with caution? Why lock your door? When we venture out into the world? Are we risking it by ourselves, or does God plunge into the risk with us?

 

[LeeB]

Whether we live or die we belong to God but God is not the God of the dead but of the living. God speaks of things that do not yet exist as though they do. I think we are involved in a discussion about things that are far beyond our comprehension. I do think there are answers but I confess that I do not know them and can only go as far into the deep things of God that have been revealed. Are we involved in an exercise of futility? With regard to the future did you look at my post about Israel ?